Fixing Capital Ships

from Sins Forums

I know this has already been discussed in other posts but I thought with the Devs now working on 1.1 I thought I would start another one that could be adressed in 1.1 or maybe the expansion. So here It goes.

1. Bottom line cap ships are weak. Cap ships should be the epitomy of your empires technology but they require no research unlike cruisers. Cap ships can get destroyed if you try taking on big pirate bases and battles just dont seem epic. Yes I know there are Mods to adress this, I personally use Real Capital Ships 1.03 by Grottenolm85, but i would rather use the Sins plus mod.

2. The range in cap ships is not enough. There should be more realalistic differances. Sluggish Battle Ships duke it out with fast battle cruisers chasing down fleeing ships and destroyers cruising through the battle attacking frigates. This would make big battles more interesting small fleet battles early on are usualy just maches of concentrating fire on a given cap ship, But this would improve medium to large fleet battles.

3. A scout ship should not be able to take so many hits from my big Cap ship it doesnt make sense and that goes for all light frigates. Basically Cap ships just have weapons that you can find on frigates. Cap ships should have more unique hard hitting weapons.

4. An easy way of adressing power problems would be making cap ships twice as powerful for twice the cost. Cap ships are cheap in big long games and you can replace them with relative easy. If you make cap ships more valuable and powerful you become more attached to it especially if leveling increases its power by more.

5. You should be able to research powerful upgrades which would improve armor, firepower, and speed more dramatically. You would then have to buy these upgrades for for individual ships meaning you can invest more money in the ship.

6. I think number 5 answers peoples cries for a super capital ship as you could invest tons of money in one cap ship. this would add a new interesting strategy to the game. Some people may want to go for quantity and others quality

83,417 views 54 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
They are well balanced as a whole except with how fast LRMS kill them.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
Same here! but did you get the 1.4 update?
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
You have a good point -CU-Raptor, but as I pointed out, in that last post about this very same problem it is not with the how powerful the ships is, but the leveling system.

I found that a 4 level(I buyed the levels in this case)battleship is just about equal(just a little less) in power to that of the same support unit cost in HC(12*4=48, I was playing Vasari at the time). A level 4 battleship! That a lot of resources, buying the levels and the ship.

I also found that it takes to level 7, in order for some cap carriers to get 6 Squadrons, while a carrier cruiser for the same amount of supply units(8*6 =48) could have all 6 squadrons the mount that they where build. You can't even get to level 7, unless you went thougth a lot of a battle, and won a lot of them. This is the reason that I don't use cap carrier an more.

Also, the HC and all other ships, have there abilities the second that they are build(You must research first thougth), while any cap, must earn they abilities, which take time or money(must of the time both).

So if you have any plans to fixs the leveling system, then I think, you can get your twice as powerful ships at same price.

I do very very much like the ideal, of powerful upgrades, for the capital ships at the end of the tech tree. And I think you are right in that it will give every one, those super capital ships, that ever one seems to be asking for.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
I do have to say it seems quite bizarre that without research we have access to the largest ships, yet access to any medium cruiser requires research. Maybe research should be focused on internal systems and hull sizes. Then as those are completed the appropriate combinations become available. My 2 cents worth.
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
You are entitled to your opinion. Mine is that capital ships are fine as they are, and I do not want them changed.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
I happen to think caps are good as they are. Since you tend to keep them alive they more than pay back there cost in DPS over time and the also have the best abilitys.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
I still think, it should be easyer for them to level up.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I am in a similar boat as you guys. I have been thinking of this for since Sins came out. I for one, view capital ships, especially the higher level ones as legendary warships (Bismark, Enterprise, Nimitz, Missouri) that should by worthy of respect on the battle field. Strike fear in the enemy.

I have a Mod already built and ready to release specifically for capital ships (but it is a 1.03 build). They are weak early on, but get stronger and stronger with the levels. I am just waiting on the new 1.04 Modding Entity Files to be released by the developers and I will post it up for all of you to play and to get feed back on.

Plus i have a couple optional suprizes you may like.

It is going to be called Kreyson's Battlewagons Mod, named after the world war I & II battleships.

As soon as sins plus and bailknights mods are updated to 1.04 i will update it to incorporate both of them. (still waiting on Bailknights approval).
Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top
I like the way they are except for two things I have read in this thread. I really like the idea of some of the "upgrades" to capital ships being accessed only through the tech tree. That sounds very cool to me.

I also think it is odd that they are available right off the bat where the medium ships are not. That they are free from the start is along side this thought and I think that is odd as well. I would much rather have a light seige ship available (to take the place of what the "starter" capital ship can do; bomb planets that is) instead of a capital ship then have to really get some resources going to get capital ships.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
To those who said that cap ships are fine your dead wrong i played a game today where it was pointless to build them because of all the missile frigates. Its basically a whast of money to buy them when I could build more frigates when it came down to it i lost because I build 3 capships while my enemy built tons of frigates then just had one cap ship for sieging.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Well, it is certainly true that you aren't supposed to purchase additional capital ships in smaller games(and purchasing levels shouldn't be done, unless you are 50 experience points away or less and there is a lull in action). If your opponent is using a ton of missile frigates, use some of your own. Scrap any bomber squadrons for fighter squadrons. Pick some ships with abilities that offer AOE damage. You'll likely need to use some of your own LRM's until you can diversify just a bit. LRM's form the backbone of the early game, for better or worse.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
To those who said that cap ships are fine your dead wrong i played a game today where it was pointless to build them because of all the missile frigates. Its basically a whast of money to buy them when I could build more frigates when it came down to it i lost because I build 3 capships while my enemy built tons of frigates then just had one cap ship for sieging.


Yes this is the one problem.


It's LRMS that are too good, not caps are too weak.


AntiMedium should do 50% damage to caps not 75%. That'd be a 33% reduction.
Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top
Yes this is the one problem.It's LRMS that are too good, not caps are too weak


I agree 100%. I build tons of these guys and can cut through everything. A heavy LRMS fleet eats capital ships for breakfast and is still ready for more. As much as I would miss that  ;)  I agree they need to be toned down a bit. Also the AI doesn't seem to try to take these guys out quick enough. Maybe that is part of problem to. I know I gun for these pretty quick when I am in a fight aganist the computer.

EDIT: I do think cpas need a little umpfh though. I mean they are capital ships they should be the pinnacle of your fleet. Maybe here the soultion lies in making these guys harder to get. As it is now it't not to hard to get them and as I agreed with above the "free" one is kinda silly imo.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Caps aren't meant to tear through everything.


They are support ships.


However if you get a battleship to a high level.. yeah those do tear through things.
Part of the strategy is leveling up your caps.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Kreyson - I agree with you. When I think of Cap ships I think of the battle wagons of WW1 and WW2 where cruisers and Destroyers would not survive for long when in an engagement with a battleship. Carriers fall into this category also, as they took over from the battleships as the "queen" of the fleets. Cruisers and destroyers/frigates are the support vessals for your capitol ships.
I look forward to your mod.
Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top
You have a good point -CU-Raptor, but as I pointed out, in that last post about this very same problem it is not with the how powerful the ships is, but the leveling system.

I found that a 4 level(I buyed the levels in this case)battleship is just about equal(just a little less) in power to that of the same support unit cost in HC(12*4=48, I was playing Vasari at the time). A level 4 battleship! That a lot of resources, buying the levels and the ship.

I also found that it takes to level 7, in order for some cap carriers to get 6 Squadrons, while a carrier cruiser for the same amount of supply units(8*6 =48) could have all 6 squadrons the mount that they where build. You can't even get to level 7, unless you went thougth a lot of a battle, and won a lot of them. This is the reason that I don't use cap carrier an more.

Also, the HC and all other ships, have there abilities the second that they are build(You must research first thougth), while any cap, must earn they abilities, which take time or money(must of the time both).

So if you have any plans to fixs the leveling system, then I think, you can get your twice as powerful ships at same price.I do very very much like the ideal, of powerful upgrades, for the capital ships at the end of the tech tree. And I think you are right in that it will give every one, those super capital ships, that ever one seems to be asking for.


You're getting yourself slightly into trouble by equating the pure damage of cap ships vs. pure damage of other ships. Cap ships have incredibly powerful abilities, and (this is very important) the first one is totally free apart from supply. Cap ships are not ship-tearing monsters (until they get level 8-10) like innociv said. They are there for support through their abilities. Consider if capital ships were at level 1 equal in damage to their supply worth of heavy cruisers. Why build anything BUT capital ships? You've already got at level 1 50 supply of the best damn ships in the game so what's the point?

In early game, the free cap ship gives you a gigantic edge over someone who doesn't have one. Medium sized games will see your cap ship to level 7 (so that they have access to their lvl 6 ability), and larger games you will probably have multiple lvl 10 cap ships which are utterly stupidly powerful when compared by fleet supply (even in raw damage) with other ships.

So as it is right now, cap ships are always good to have regardless of your game size/situation. The LRM spam is a big problem because they will obliterate capital ships, but I think the speed changes etc. can mitigate cap assassination a bit. LRM's will likely be further mitigated in the multiplayer 1.1 update.

The problem with making cap ships too powerful is that they are already very very powerful and potentially game-changing depending on your situation. If they are buffed to 'meet' the supply comparison with other ships, they will either have a very uninteresting lvl 4-8 or they will basically invincible planet-crunching ship-munching machines that equate to an 'I Win' button. Frigates and cruisers have to matter at some point so you can't push the cap ship power too far.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Caps aren't meant to tear through everything.


Says who innociv?
I remember that the dev's said they are the core of ur fleet, leading ur fleet into the battles.
So why should HC's "tear through everything" but those highly specialsed killing machines not?


They are support ships.


uhm, again from where did u get this? Just cause they have special abilities doesnt mean they are support ships.
It doesnt make sense if ships called Battleships, Battlecruiser etc. are "support".
No in naval terms such descriptions are used for the ships which duke it out and provide the main firepower.



However if you get a battleship to a high level.. yeah those do tear through things.Part of the strategy is leveling up your caps.


this might work on huge games vs AI but seriously building many caps is rarely worth it.
They are simply to expensive.
Just calc how many HC's u get for the cost of building and researching 6 caps.

Also look at the multiplayer part. When was the last time u used more than 1 cap with Vasari or even TEC? Only Advent built a bit more due to superior abilities but for sure not for fighting.
Seriously i see all the time of 50+ fleets with just A SINGLE CAP.
Thats so wrong in so many ways...
The ratio of caps to cruiser/frigs is totaly off.
Caps are currently not playing the role they are supposed to play. Its more about choosing the right 1st cap as some sort of Wc3 Hero unit and then never care about caps again.
I mean the caps have so much potential to bring a bigger level of strategy to the game alone due to their abilities but u have to make em viable.
Currently their price to cost is just not good.
Maybe make them a lot stronger (adding more dmg, hull points and armor) while making it harder to get experience so that they are a lot more usefull early and not as godly later.

Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Once I saw a poster of fake starwars movies...

It said "Episode 9: Lets build another Deathstar"

Although it would be really cool to see a planet explode, (or to make the star itself go nova) if the capital ships are too strong, then I could just build 4-5 Marza's and go to the enemy homeworlds and win the game by broadcasting culture!
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
They lead the fleet in their support..

Are you saying malice, nanites, vertigo, phase out hull, i could name like 15 more abilities, don't make a difference?


If you did make caps, say, 50% more damaging.. well that's going to really imbalance them early game.
Their damage per level could be raised, though.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
I don't think they should be damage monsters, I do think though they should be harder to kill.

I'm overall fine with their damage output, it would be very taxing on balance to make outstanding at killing lighter ships (Homeworld style) because the opening Capitals would simply replace a fleet until at least the first fleet upgrade, and that would be kind of crazy.

I do think Caps as a whole though are too vulnerable to focus fire (particularly early game from LRMs, but even later game by the Heavy Cruisers). They're ultimately great support ships, and since they don't (and shouldn't) be all about their raw damage, it seems to make sense to make them a little harder to pop in a few seconds with concentrated fire.

Not sure how exactly that could be solved, though. Cutting down on the damage that all weapon types due to Capital armor might be an idea, or maybe raise the maximum shield mitigation, as well as raising how easily Capitals can achieve it?
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
I've had 9 Capital Ships be completely decimated in under 2 minutes by 50 Kodiaks (and not including my support frigates, which made the fleet sizes almost 1:1). In exchange for the Caps and support frigates, I ended up only destroying 7 enemy Kodiaks. Since then, I've done exactly what LA is talking about: using the Cap as an early Hero unit, then going straight heavy crusiers.

Along with a buff for fighters and Cap armor, I think Capital Ships need an interception system, like the real life Phalanx Close-in Weapons System, that targets enemy projectiles coming at the Capital Ship. Doesn't have to be godly, but just another defensive measure helping keep the Caps from being completely smashed.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
They lead the fleet in their support..Are you saying malice, nanites, vertigo, phase out hull, i could name like 15 more abilities, don't make a difference?If you did make caps, say, 50% more damaging.. well that's going to really imbalance them early game.Their damage per level could be raised, though.


inno, thats exactly the problem. Caps matter just cause of their abilities so some caps are super usefull why others totaly worthless.
But since when are caps supposed to be support ships? Thats totaly out of line with any concept for major ships.
Ok one cap specialised for such tasks would be ok but whats up with Battleships, Battlecruiser etc. being inferior to HC's?
I mean the dev's said they didnt want caps to become wc3 hero like units but u just said it urself, they are exactly this.
Their abilities can decide early game on their own.
What i propose is to make the abilities a lot less strong. I mean malice for example can obliterate whole fleets. Isnt THAT imbalanced?
Just make Caps what u would expect them to be. Powerfull ships against heavy stuff like cruiser and caps, maybe somewhat decent against medium things and weak against light (thus the need for frigs/cruiser as support to protect ur caps like its done in any naval space orientated game).
This way ur caps wouldnt be overpowered in early game and choosing ur first cap just based on its abilities wont be the main factor of strategy in ur early game.
They'd be vulnurable to small stuff and couldnt much dmg to em but that could still offer some smaller support and be really usefull later in the game against cruisers/caps, especially with better upgrade options available.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
I've had 9 Capital Ships be completely decimated in under 2 minutes by 50 Kodiaks (and not including my support frigates, which made the fleet sizes almost 1:1). In exchange for the Caps and support frigates, I ended up only destroying 7 enemy Kodiaks. Since then, I've done exactly what LA is talking about: using the Cap as an early Hero unit, then going straight heavy crusiers.Along with a buff for fighters and Cap armor, I think Capital Ships need an interception system, like the real life Phalanx Close-in Weapons System, that targets enemy projectiles coming at the Capital Ship. Doesn't have to be godly, but just another defensive measure helping keep the Caps from being completely smashed.

Well you did it wrong.. i had 6 cap ships + just a few gaurdians and 40 disciples kill 50 crusaders+50 enforcers(was 2vs1)
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
I've had 9 Capital Ships be completely decimated in under 2 minutes by 50 Kodiaks (and not including my support frigates, which made the fleet sizes almost 1:1). In exchange for the Caps and support frigates, I ended up only destroying 7 enemy Kodiaks. Since then, I've done exactly what LA is talking about: using the Cap as an early Hero unit, then going straight heavy crusiers.Along with a buff for fighters and Cap armor, I think Capital Ships need an interception system, like the real life Phalanx Close-in Weapons System, that targets enemy projectiles coming at the Capital Ship. Doesn't have to be godly, but just another defensive measure helping keep the Caps from being completely smashed.Well you did it wrong.. i had 6 cap ships + just a few gaurdians and 40 disciples kill 50 crusaders+50 enforcers(was 2vs1)


but u should better than anyone that it was not the caps who decided that battle, it was for one ur stupid enemies (just close range...) and the guardians.

Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
shhh >_>