Sins Units = Warcraft 3 Units

from Sins Forums
I don't know if anyone had brought this up in previous threads, but it's worth mentioning. The units and abilities in Sins are almost directly parallel to those in WC3. This fact took away a lot of the novelty of the game for me. Keep in mind I've spent years playing WC3 and know everything about the game. These "coincidental" similarities were apparent to me only hours after playing. Take a look:

Scout: Peon, Peasant, Acolyte, Wisp. Used for scouting and colonizing (Vasari). Weak damage and HP. No research required for training.

Basic Assault: Grunt, Archer, Footman, Ghoul. Basic, weak fighting unit. Immediately trainable and upgradable to be moderately useful in mid-late game.

Long Range: Huntress, Rifleman, Headhunter, Crypt Fiend. Next buildable unit, requires limited research. Generally stronger than basic assult (although headhunters are quite weak in wc3). Are often massed in Sins as in wc3.

Planet Bomber: Mortar Team, Ballista, Demolisher, Meat Wagon. Used for buildings (planets). Requires limited research, (moderate research in wc3). Extremely vulnerable to all units. High food cost.

Support: Priest, Banshee, Druid of the Talon/Fairie Dragon, Witch Doctor. Weak physical attack, rarely massed, battle changing abilities. 2-3 abilities. Require moderate research to train, extensive research for max potential. Fairly vulnerable (with the exception of guardian with is the equivilent of a Spirit Breaker). Highly buff/debuff oriented. First of two utility units.

Disable/Repair: Sorceress, Shaman, Necromancer, Dryad. Again, weak physical attack (Dryad has moderate attack damage), game-breaking abilities, 2-3 abilities, buff/debuff oriented. Similar to support.

Heavy Assault: Knight, Tauren, Abomination, Druid of the Claw. Strongest unit in both games, excluding air. Not quite a necessity, but very useful in most situations. High HP and a useful spell to add to it. Extensive research required and small numbers can destroy large armies of units they are effective against. Once researched, training cost isn't THAT much higher than other units.

Capital Ships: 4 heroes per race in wc3 with 4 ablities each. One ultimate ability obtainable in level 6 (hmm)... Max ability level is level 3.

This isn't a coincidence, Sins unit structure almost undoubtedly immitates that of wc3 because, one can assume, of wc3's nearly flawless balancing scheme. Sure, there are parallels in almost all games, but this one is strikingly bold. Some units are left out and not every unit or building has a counter-part, but for those of you who get livid when reading about people trashing Sins for "stealing" their content from other games should think twice before trying to convince themselves that Sins is 100% originality.

I love the game, I love the community, and I will continue to play it for a long time to come. Flame on.






89,547 views 61 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Lol all rts can be said to be equal to warcraft ONE by your logic. So we have some weaker cheap unit, then going up the tech tree better units damn those games have somethng similar!
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
The various national militaries of the world stole their ideas from Warcraft, true story.
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
I don't usually post replies but the comment you made about this game being like WC3 made me thing no S#$% sherlock. You obviously have only played one RTS. Ive played damn near everyone that has ever come out: Dune, KKND, Starcraft, Warcraft, Command and Conquer, Age of Empires, and others that I can't think of right now, and all of them have the same principles and Ideas. How else would you create a RTS?
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

… and all of them have the same principles and Ideas. How else would you create a RTS?

Actually, there are other ways, but none of them have been particularly commercially successful. Perimeter, for example, is pretty much the icon for “No, really, you can do it differently!” RTS design, but there have certainly been other entries like Majesty, Darwinia and even Treasure Planet: Battle at Procyon (the last of which I used to play an unseemly amount of because it was fun). There are a multitude of new, different, exciting ways to build, manage and explore the ludic space of RTSs.

The market just won’t bear them.

That said, Sins experimentation with the tried and true market formulas of both the RTS and 4x genres is fan-frickin’-tastic and if they’ve carried on a few of the genre signposts so that they can get traction when they’ve gone off the road, I’m hardly going to call them out for it.

Summary version: The OP may be a dink and a reprobate, but … well, no, really, there’s no but. He’s just wrong. But there are certainly other RTS approaches to be had.


Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
lol just becuase u like WCIII doesnt mean it has the RTS privileges

all rts's have strong and weak units.... knight / tauren/ abomination = Heavy cruiser........

tough now starcraft comea in mind........ looks like blizzard used SC units 2 make WCIII units.... u CANT say this becuase all RTS's look alike...its just what u make of it
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
My head hurts after reading this.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
I have to totally agree with Rickder19 here. Not only do units but everything else stinks of WC3. I mean just look at the mouse controls - you click to select units and you click and drag to select multiple ones - where does Sins get off so blatantly ripping off Warcraft?! And don't even get me started on keyboard shortrcuts - F10 to call up the main menu - that's exactly the same as in every warcraft game!

I understand copying a feature or two, I mean if something's done right then it'd be foolish not to use it, but ripping off mouse and keyboard control schemes - that's just low!

I remember when the developers came out few months before the game's release and announced that this is the most original game of all time and nothing in it has ever been done before, I expected a revolutionary RTS with crazy units that didn't abide by any conventions and completely ignored any ideas about balance, and more importantly a direct brain control system. And what did we get instead - a well balanced and fun RTS with sensible units, good graphics and logical control scheme - but that's been done hundred times over by other good RTS games, it's not original! WTH!

I'm really disappointed, that's all I can say.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
I have to totally agree with Rickder19 here. Not only do units but everything else stinks of WC3. I mean just look at the mouse controls - you click to select units and you click and drag to select multiple ones - where does Sins get off so blatantly ripping off Warcraft?! And don't even get me started on keyboard shortrcuts - F10 to call up the main menu - that's exactly the same as in every warcraft game! I understand copying a feature or two, I mean if something's done right then it'd be foolish not to use it, but ripping off mouse and keyboard control schemes - that's just low!I remember when the developers came out few months before the game's release and announced that this is the most original game of all time and nothing in it has ever been done before, I expected a revolutionary RTS with crazy units that didn't abide by any conventions and completely ignored any ideas about balance, and more importantly a direct brain control system. And what did we get instead - a well balanced and fun RTS with sensible units, good graphics and logical control scheme - but that's been done hundred times over by other good RTS games, it's not original! WTH!I'm really disappointed, that's all I can say.


that reached new plains of sarcasm  :HOT: 

Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
@whiterabbit007

...and might I chastise you for using an id that at least six other people have used... ;)
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
And what is the equivalent of carriers and flak frigates in Warcraft 3 ?
I don't play many hours W3( many more on DOTA) but I don' remember that units have a double life bar (one for the shield the other for the unit itself).
Do too much "unconventional" units and "heroes" would break the accessibility of the game. It's enough difficult to see visually the role of an unit in a space RTS : in a fantasy game sorcerers wear dresses and warriors wear armors, in a strategy game like starcraft the vehicles and infantry units look like more or less the soldiers and outfit used in actual armies. In "Space opera" RTS, nothing can remind you the role of a spaceship (apart the size of the ship) because we don't have space army actually, the only comparison points used in movies(Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica) and videogames are often the Navy or the Air Force.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
The various national militaries of the world stole their ideas from Warcraft, true story.


Foogsert, you sure got a chuckle out of me. But Rickder19 does make a fairly compelling argument. For the record, I immediately thought of warcraft 3 heroes when I saw sins capships for the first time.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
I feel my IQ has lowered for reading the OP.

Please please please tell me he isn't serious.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
If you going to compare it to wc3 you should just use this quote

Here's how heroes worked in WC3: You have a hero, they have four skills unique to them, one of which they can't level in until level 6 (that's their super ability). Their maximum level in the others is one half the current level of the hero rounded down, which means you can't just level in the same skill every time. There are neutral enemies scattered around the map, and in the early game its important to travel around and kill or "creep" these enemies to level up the hero so its more competitive when you finally meet the enemy.

Hell, the buttons for the skills are even in the same place. It's a good hero system, I see why they "borrowed" it, but it's more than a little flagrant and obvious to anyone that's ever played WC3 considering that the system isn't merely similar it's identical.


It also uses roughly the same armor system, but I wouldn't really consider the units to be at all similar, really.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
synac has got it right, they're all just Dune II clones. :D

It does seem some of the stuff is structured similar to WC3, but WC3 was mostly a rip-off of other games anyway. It's the old "pot calling the kettle black."

The important thing is the difference in style of play. Chess and checkers use the same board layout, but man, they ain't the same.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Is there any reason not to copy from one of the most successful Games ever? You don't have to invent the wheel anew.
I liked the handling of WC3(and the game overall) as did the devs if you look at Sins.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
I have to totally agree with Rickder19 here. Not only do units but everything else stinks of WC3. I mean just look at the mouse controls - you click to select units and you click and drag to select multiple ones - where does Sins get off so blatantly ripping off Warcraft?! And don't even get me started on keyboard shortrcuts - F10 to call up the main menu - that's exactly the same as in every warcraft game! I understand copying a feature or two, I mean if something's done right then it'd be foolish not to use it, but ripping off mouse and keyboard control schemes - that's just low!I remember when the developers came out few months before the game's release and announced that this is the most original game of all time and nothing in it has ever been done before, I expected a revolutionary RTS with crazy units that didn't abide by any conventions and completely ignored any ideas about balance, and more importantly a direct brain control system. And what did we get instead - a well balanced and fun RTS with sensible units, good graphics and logical control scheme - but that's been done hundred times over by other good RTS games, it's not original! WTH!I'm really disappointed, that's all I can say.


I swear I've been laughing at this for the last 10 minutes. It reads so serious and then takes you into a high level of sarcasm.

Direct brain control system. lol

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Okay then. Could someone please make a mod so that I can play Sins units on a Warcraft 3 map? I want capital ships in the forests. Oh yeah, I wanna play WC3 units in space too.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
Warcraft, Dune, C&C, and so on all copied off each other. To say that Sins copied off Warcraft is to fault the underlying mechanics that make RTS games successful. If Sins were closer to Warcraft 3 in terms of gameplay, organization, and art direction I'd probably not be playing it. I'm one of those people who has never liked Blizzard's RTS games. I didn't really like Dawn of War either, but it seems to be more solid than the Blizzard games that look very similar. I'm more of an Age of Empires, Rise of Legends, and similar games player.
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Direct brain control system. lol


don't lol - somewhere i read about a working prototype that is already in advanced development stage as an input device (targeted for the mmorpg crowd too lazy to type their emote-commands)

now ontopic :
if one doesn't like the wc3 similarities one can always remove (modding..)the levels of capships and all the special abilities of all ships. At least you don't scream about the loss of your one and only lvl10 cap ship but instead of the wasted resources.

does anyone remember the game "Command HQ" ?
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
I have to totally agree with Rickder19 here. Not only do units but everything else stinks of WC3. I mean just look at the mouse controls - you click to select units and you click and drag to select multiple ones - where does Sins get off so blatantly ripping off Warcraft?! And don't even get me started on keyboard shortrcuts - F10 to call up the main menu - that's exactly the same as in every warcraft game! I understand copying a feature or two, I mean if something's done right then it'd be foolish not to use it, but ripping off mouse and keyboard control schemes - that's just low!

I remember when the developers came out few months before the game's release and announced that this is the most original game of all time and nothing in it has ever been done before, I expected a revolutionary RTS with crazy units that didn't abide by any conventions and completely ignored any ideas about balance, and more importantly a direct brain control system. And what did we get instead - a well balanced and fun RTS with sensible units, good graphics and logical control scheme - but that's been done hundred times over by other good RTS games, it's not original! WTH!I'm really disappointed, that's all I can say.


The thing that really pissed me off was... there are all these 'resources' and this incessant adding and subtracting. And why are we still building units? I mean this isn't the 1990's someone should think of something new. Units with abilities - BEEN DONE. Abilities use energy and are on timers... how terribly unexpected!

This is just the same 'kill the other guy' game that has been made over and over.

Don't even get me started on the interface... I mean come on. A GUI! WOW! Welcome to EVERY OTHER GAME EVER MADE! Geez, it's like typing commands into a console is taboo or something. I swear, would it fucking KILL people to break out the Programmer's Guide to Smart Assembly every now and then???!!!

It installs on the hard drive? YOU DON'T SAY! I might as well just install Windows 3.1 and be done with it, that is how far games like this have taken us.

And the themes... my god how many space games can we possibly have? You guys do know that space has been well-understood for like... 300 YEARS right? And there's aliens - get this - in space! *GASP* Can no one think of anything new besides aliens and space? I mean, Starcraft was made - what - 10 years ago?

Research and technology... way to copy ALL OF RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY. I swear, if this is far as we've come in the Digital Millenium Age, we might as well all go back and live in caves.

>_>

Oh and by the way, I've concluded that pomegranates are pretty much exactly the same thing as car tires.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
Grats on being the only person in the universe to discover something that isn't there.  :CONGRAT: 
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
The thing that really pissed me off was... there are all these 'resources' and this incessant adding and subtracting. And why are we still building units? I mean this isn't the 1990's someone should think of something new. Units with abilities - BEEN DONE. Abilities use energy and are on timers... how terribly unexpected!

This is just the same 'kill the other guy' game that has been made over and over.

Don't even get me started on the interface... I mean come on. A GUI! WOW! Welcome to EVERY OTHER GAME EVER MADE! Geez, it's like typing commands into a console is taboo or something. I swear, would it fucking KILL people to break out the Programmer's Guide to Smart Assembly every now and then???!!!

It installs on the hard drive? YOU DON'T SAY! I might as well just install Windows 3.1 and be done with it, that is how far games like this have taken us.

And the themes... my god how many space games can we possibly have? You guys do know that space has been well-understood for like... 300 YEARS right? And there's aliens - get this - in space! *GASP* Can no one think of anything new besides aliens and space? I mean, Starcraft was made - what - 10 years ago?

Research and technology... way to copy ALL OF RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY. I swear, if this is far as we've come in the Digital Millenium Age, we might as well all go back and live in caves.


Whiterabbit007 had it perfect. Absolutely exquisite. Be careful of going too far, though - sarcastically making fun of something stated in sarcasm is novel but tired, IMO.
Whoops! Hijack!
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
I have to totally agree with Rickder19 here. Not only do units but everything else stinks of WC3. I mean just look at the mouse controls - you click to select units and you click and drag to select multiple ones - where does Sins get off so blatantly ripping off Warcraft?! And don't even get me started on keyboard shortrcuts - F10 to call up the main menu - that's exactly the same as in every warcraft game! I understand copying a feature or two, I mean if something's done right then it'd be foolish not to use it, but ripping off mouse and keyboard control schemes - that's just low!I remember when the developers came out few months before the game's release and announced that this is the most original game of all time and nothing in it has ever been done before, I expected a revolutionary RTS with crazy units that didn't abide by any conventions and completely ignored any ideas about balance, and more importantly a direct brain control system. And what did we get instead - a well balanced and fun RTS with sensible units, good graphics and logical control scheme - but that's been done hundred times over by other good RTS games, it's not original! WTH!I'm really disappointed, that's all I can say.The thing that really pissed me off was... there are all these 'resources' and this incessant adding and subtracting. And why are we still building units? I mean this isn't the 1990's someone should think of something new. Units with abilities - BEEN DONE. Abilities use energy and are on timers... how terribly unexpected!This is just the same 'kill the other guy' game that has been made over and over.Don't even get me started on the interface... I mean come on. A GUI! WOW! Welcome to EVERY OTHER GAME EVER MADE! Geez, it's like typing commands into a console is taboo or something. I swear, would it fucking KILL people to break out the Programmer's Guide to Smart Assembly every now and then???!!!It installs on the hard drive? YOU DON'T SAY! I might as well just install Windows 3.1 and be done with it, that is how far games like this have taken us.And the themes... my god how many space games can we possibly have? You guys do know that space has been well-understood for like... 300 YEARS right? And there's aliens - get this - in space! *GASP* Can no one think of anything new besides aliens and space? I mean, Starcraft was made - what - 10 years ago? Research and technology... way to copy ALL OF RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY. I swear, if this is far as we've come in the Digital Millenium Age, we might as well all go back and live in caves.>_>Oh and by the way, I've concluded that pomegranates are pretty much exactly the same thing as car tires.



/Me taps sarcasm meter.