Trials and Tribulations of a Pacifist

Suggestions for AI threat analysis and storing old ships

from GalCiv2 Forums
Typically, I only build up a military when I need it. I keep my coffers very full and my designs up to date so when an enemy challenges me it takes me just a few weeks to draw up a good-sized fleet with the best technology available, usually more than enough to pummel my would-be conquerors into submission. However, once I have all these ships they're taking up a huge portion of my income in their upkeep and if I decommission them I only get pennies on the dollar returned. I know it's a balancing act but I have another idea...

Most other nations with any warships at all will start to hate me just because they're superior to my free-standing armada. I don't think every single nation should have such a strong desire to conquer, or should at least take into account another race's military potential. Sure I don't have star destroyers floating around their home planet... but give me a week or two and I could. I'm tired of having people declare war on me just because I'm not belligerent. I've even tried using frequent trade and gifts to keep them from attacking but no matter how good of friends we are, no matter how beneficial it is for them to leave us alone, eventually we're always attacked.

It'd also be nice if we could mothball old ships without destroying them entirely. A stored ship could require a week to activate and take damage over time (to simulate disrepair), but could only cost a fraction of the usual upkeep. That would allow peaceful nations like me to keep ships on hand without paying as much for them as would a race in the midst of an all-out war. Or at least decrease the cost to maintain ships that aren't repairing/rearming that week...

Greater accessibility to planetary defenses might be nice too. It'd be cool if we could treat planets, even unhospitable ones, like starbases and upgrade them with orbital platforms. Maybe we could even get a terraforming module to improve the quality of the host planet, thereby allowing us to populate unhospitable planets as long as we're willing to put forth the investment.
warfare
16,046 views 24 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yea, while there are many ways to win the game (conquest, influence, tech, alliance) not having a decent military isn't an option. Don't know what to tell you accept that the AI is provoked by weakness, no matter what your potential is.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
That's the problem, however.

He isn't weak, if he can field an armada sufficient to block any attack on short notice. The AI should understand this, and be wary of such an awesome production potential.
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The AI could be smarter about this.

It also needs to take tech into account more. Often an AI will believe it is militarily superior to me because it has a high number of low tech ships, despite an enormous difference in tech.

High defensive values can mean that my ships are almost undestroyable from the AI's point of view, and yet he still declares war.
Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top
I think this is a feature, not a bug. I see a civilization with a HUGE pile of money and no real defenses, and I'm supposed to AVOID attacking that? Come on!
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The problem with the AI is, if it really thinks it's fifty times stronger than you, it's going to win in the end. All it has to do is fight a war of attrition, which is the norm on any map large or above. In fact, on huge maps it's logistically impossible to coordinate sneak attacks without ship speeds of at least 20. I've tried keeping a token fleet and then pulling out an army with 50k BC in the coffers, yet I'm still disadvantaged. They just have such a long build up time, they can afford losing huge numbers of ships while you can't.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah it needs to take into account production potential and tech levels. Sure I may only have 3-4 fleets floating around compared to your 50 by mine only take damage after fighting 10 and even if I do get into trouble I can build at least one ship of the line every turn.
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I generally buy ships from one enemy and then sell them to another (often at a loss) to keep the balance of miitary power in the game. Researching Spin centers and parking a few high-powered ships in orbit also helps to keep your maintenance costs low while still seeming strong.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yes. One time, The Ai declared war on me, ewven though he had low production (about one 5th of mine), And a fleet of ships that were gradually being built. In 4 weeks I had twice the military rating of him, thanks to a class 22 planet with 19 factories, a manufactoring center, starport and a moon.
The Ai should really take into acount the time it would take you (based on ships it can see now) to make a fleet the same size or greater than yours. If it thinks this will be lower than the time it would take the AI to defeat you, it doesn't declare war.

Similar to what Hitlers plan was. Instead of having 100,000 trrops like the Allies said, he had 100,000 troop trainers, And trained several million troops when the war broke out.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Woops. can't edit it, but this:

it would take you (based on ships it can see now) to make a fleet the same size or greater than yours.

Should be:

it would take you (based on ships it can see now) to make a fleet the same size or greater than its own.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Your only inviting another exploit.Keep high production values and the AI will not attack you?The AI doesn't know what your strategy is.It cannot read your mind nor tell the future.And if you are trying for a peaceful victory and the AI won't attack,then you end up with a boring game.Two of the peaceful methods of victory won't even provoke a response from the AI,tech victory and Alliance.At least I have never seen one.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I don't think that strong potential should disuade someone from attacking. If anything, it calls for a sneak attack to capture production before a response can be organized. There is a reason military powers get into an arms race and don't just compare checkbooks.

The AI just formulates strategy so poorly that all it can measure itself on is numbers. And someone's war of attrition comment is spot on to me. Usually when I'm attacked I will destroy 10x the number of ships and take planets/starbases yet I still have to sue for peace (and pay) because I don't have enough ships to protect my home planets, new planets and starbases and still keep up my military rating so that other races don't attack as well.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I relish these little strategy gaffes because it gives me the opportunity to be a bully. Recently happened to me early in a medium, challenging game game vs. the Altarians. They only had one good planet (Altaria), one class 3 and one class 4 planet. Clearly, their only option was to die by attrition or try for whomever they suspected was the weakest enemy. I happened to be nearby and apparently weak. I took Altaria quickly, destroyed their resource mining operations and left them with Wisp and another crappy planet. Enjoy! I'll have the two crummy planets when they flip.

What I'd like to see incorporated into the game, if it isn't already there, is the AI considering a race's past military history. If I crush an opponent, that should serve to deter other potential opponents.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I haven't played that many games, but I have found that the AI (playing tough right now) is not prepared to go to war when they declare war. It sounds like everyone has time to build ships enough to at least defend, if not win a war of aggression. However it's obvious when human players are ready to go, because they are not just reacting to preset conditions. I had the Drengi declare war on me, I had 3 planets and 2 frigates. By the time they attacked after declaring war, I had 4 fleets waiting for them and eventually crushed their Empire to within 2 planets.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It sounds like everyone has time to build ships enough to at least defend, if not win a war of aggression.


Therein lies the problem. The AI is nice enough to declare war and then move his forces towards you at a casual pace giving you more than enough time to build a fleet and counterattack. The problem isn't that the AI doesn't take POTENTIAL military strength into account, it's that it shouldn't have to if it would just wage war better.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It sounds like everyone has time to build ships enough to at least defend, if not win a war of aggression.


Therein lies the problem. The AI is nice enough to declare war and then move his forces towards you at a casual pace giving you more than enough time to build a fleet and counterattack. The problem isn't that the AI doesn't take POTENTIAL military strength into account, it's that it shouldn't have to if it would just wage war better.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I'm a pacifist. Honest. I almost never build fleets. If I must build warships, I build big ships capable of taking on several AI fleets per turn. The key to not maintaining a standing army is alliances, trading and diplomacy.

I'm currently on four planets, with a hostile Altaria as my nearest neighbor. They've been being very pushy lately, threatening me and demanding tribute. I could probably rush some ships and get them off my back, I suppose. Instead, I called up the Drengin, Korx and Arceans and offered them some of my ample cash. They all gladly declared war. In the meantime, I rush built some freighters and sent them to Altaria, Wisp and some other planet, establishing short, barely profitable trade routes. Those trade routes help prevent the Altarians from being so aggressive toward me. All that buys me time to build more constructors for my influence and economic starbases. My Trade and Diplomacy skills are so advanced that when I start pushing the AI for money and starbases and sometimes planets, they roll over and sell cheap.

I probably won't see battle until the Thalena nd Torians decide to stop fighting each other.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The AI is nice enough to declare war and then move his forces towards you at a casual pace giving you more than enough time to build a fleet and counterattack


It would make such a huge difference if the AI were to 'declare War' internally & then inform you about it after they attack their first starbase/planet/ship.

Perhaps the 'Declare War now, Attack later' strategy would work better for the 'Good' races (in character, so to speak)?

Perhaps, as a compensation, 'Good' races would receive a morale boost while at war, if the enemy race is of a different allignment (+10% vs Neutral/Neutral Leaning, +20% vs Evil/Evil Leaning).
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
that's a big boost. Halve that and it'd be a good idea, IMO.
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
That's the problem, however.

He isn't weak, if he can field an armada sufficient to block any attack on short notice. The AI should understand this, and be wary of such an awesome production potential.


It happens in real life. The Japanese underestimated the USA in planning for WWII. "We have awakened a sleeping giant.", one of the Japanese admirals was quoted as saying at the attack on Pearl Harbor. If the USA had not had most of its' Pacific fleet bottled up in Pearl Harbor, the Japanese would not likely have attacked at that time and place or maybe not at all.

I like the idea of having to keep a deterrent force. In the above example why didn't the Japanese see that even if 100% successful, the attack would only start an emormous war machine in action? They had excellent intelligence on the us Military disposition of the USA. It seems they most severly underestimated the manufacturing/arming capabilities of the USA.

Since the Japanese were set to "masochistic" or even "suicidal" it seems that even under the best of circumstances, factions who want to attack WILL attack, regardless of evidence that their opponent is weak or strong.
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
They didn't really underestimate the USA. All the Japanes wargames, and simulations they ran showed they would lose a war. But they went ahead with it anyways. It wasn't just Yamamoto who realized they weren't going to be able to win a war with West.

They considered the oil embargo an affront to them, and an offensive manuever. So they were going to fight back, despite the odds. They blamed the USA for starting the war; they didn't take responsibility for it.
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
The defense costs aren't THAT high. You have to not be in the wimp section.Just making sure you're not the easiest bug to squash is all it takes to keep the wolves at bay until you seduce them with your diplomatic and influence skills... And having a standing fleet is the best way to quickly offer ships in diplomacy with the currently losing side of a war... If I had a complaint, it's that I haven't yet had a Drengin say, "You know, the Torians are attacking us with ships IDENTICAL to your dumb little custom designs. I wonder how that happened?"
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
If you think about it when the computer does this it makes the same mistake Japan did when it attacked the US in WW2. You can't just look at the other side's military, but unfortunately nations make this mistake over and over again. G. Bush looked at the Iraq' military and rightly knew the US military was superior--I don't he considered the kind of long term war he was getting into, though. History is full of miscalculations.
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
"You know, the Torians are attacking us with ships IDENTICAL to your dumb little custom designs. I wonder how that happened?"