Proposal for Mine Fields

Please allow me to propose a way to make mines interesting and UNIQUE

*****Ideas for different types***

  damages systems or hull - basic

****black hole mine - only can be detonated once of course***

 1. 3 units are used to lay a black hole mine

2. any ship , including friendly detonates by entering hex or adjacent to hex

 3. any ship in the hex when detonated is destroyed, any adjacent ship is pulled into the hex and has a 50/50 chance of destruction, all ships effected by the mine are inactive until next turn

 4. no effect on moons planets , asteroids or bases but would destroy a gate or shipyard

**** proposal of bonzai ship using a black hole bomb the ship holding a black hole bomb may detonate itself and create the effects of the mine *** a nice surprise attack , jolly deadly old boy ...

*** the ARGONNE accumulator mine ***

1. it charges up whenever ships pass by or are adjacent - by draining energy from passing ships

2. if an enemy ship ends movement near the AA , the damage is dealt based on how much the AA has accumulated , it gets stronger as the game goes on and is not used up or removed. perhaps the AA would require more resources to place

**** Dispersion Mine ***

1. placed as normal

2. 50/50 chance of effect - cheaper to place

3. the ship detonating the dispersion mine is thrown a number of hexes in a random direction - based on its drive strength - think of it as an engine malfunction

4. damage can also occur

note : the Mines would only be visible by friendly forces and revealed by sweeper modules or ships - The SPIDER placed on a ship could be used to detect them as well.

1. mine fields can be pre-located if you are in a campaign

2. mine fields can be used to decrease the movement ability of the opponent and/or damage or destroy ships

3. they affect only the movement of the opposing players (unless detonated near or in the hex you have your ships)

4. they would affect any ship passing through or in a 1 hex radius (enemy)

5. damage would vary based on tech

6. all ships in the hex are effected equally , adjacent hexes would be a percentage

7. the exception to no friendly damage would be null if there are any ships in or nearby due to detonation ( a friendly ship cant set it off)

8. you could lose shields or weapons permanently , drives, sensors, anything due to unpredictable results, as of now , I dont think there is a way to damage a system permanently - if you have a commander , he could be killed.

9. the mines are only removed by the mine sweeper ship or module

10. I think it might be better if the mines continue to detonate until removed making it worth your while to lay them

11. perhaps to make them more deadly shields would not prevent damage , I consider that the mine would be a surprise and the shields would be down

*******placement******

1. the cargo ship could have mine laying modules - perhaps a certain number created when manufacturing , choose how many units to carry.

2. if you want a mine in a hex just choose the option as you would a starbase.

3. the mine is active immediately at end of turn

*****removal***

the mine sweeper must begin its turn adjacent to the mine to remove it - choose as you would any other action - Im not sure if the minesweeper should be used up since the crew disarms it - limit one mine field removed per turn giving the player a chance to defend his mines

 

Please let me know if you have better ideas for how it could work.

JJ  :)

68,352 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top

Mines in space can only work if you reconstruct the idea.

It wouldn't make sense to mine off areas, but as a defensive measure for things like Starbases, HyperGates, Shipyards, and the like, they make sense.  Even with 3 dimensions of space it's not implausible or necessarily impractical.

The enemy could see them and slow down, sure, but they make themselves easier to target in doing so.  Lastly, you COULD mine a planet for defensive measures, but that should probably be a Galactic Wonder, since it would be a massive undertaking.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting JerkClock, reply 1

Mines in space can only work if you reconstruct the idea.

It wouldn't make sense to mine off areas, but as a defensive measure for things like Starbases, HyperGates, Shipyards, and the like, they make sense.  Even with 3 dimensions of space it's not implausible or necessarily impractical.

The enemy could see them and slow down, sure, but they make themselves easier to target in doing so.  Lastly, you COULD mine a planet for defensive measures, but that should probably be a Galactic Wonder, since it would be a massive undertaking.

thanks for your comment

I see what you mean by walling off sections of space which is a very valid point, but consider the Starbase or even a single ship cant be moved through without engaging it, so it appears the Starbase is essentially omnipresent in the hex so why not a mine field. The 3 dimensional aspect of space is a concern I know. A way to imagine it, is that the field is dispersed throughout the hex and conceivably have the "ability" to react to intruders.

I was thinking they would be used to "reserve" a planet for later colonization, prevent a transport from getting through , protect your borders. Even wall off an ascension crystal. But yeah protect your planets starbases and Hypergates etc.

There is no way to kill of ships without declaring war or using a privateer. I personally dont like it when I am invaded without consent lol.

the ships just show up and take my resources , set up starbases , colonize in my space etc.. and I dont want  (or am unable ) to declare war to stop this. The mines provide a way to deal with scenarios not otherwise covered. A pacifist or defensive strategy would be enhanced, create a dug in position , as in war , the dug in enemy is really hard to beat. Also would enhance your attacks by not having to constantly create defensive ships and let your offense roll on..

gifting things to your allies or minors does not help much sometimes, how about helping a defenseless planet and give it a layer of prtection, you could set the layer on auto and let it use the planet or object as a target moving around until it completes the shield.

maintenance on ships is also avoided ? sometimes I cant afford to maintain all the ships so I could afford a defensive field perhaps.

your galactic wonder is a great addition !

 

thanks again

JJ :)

Reply #3 Top

Quoting jabberjaws, reply 2


Quoting JerkClock,

Mines in space can only work if you reconstruct the idea.

It wouldn't make sense to mine off areas, but as a defensive measure for things like Starbases, HyperGates, Shipyards, and the like, they make sense.  Even with 3 dimensions of space it's not implausible or necessarily impractical.

The enemy could see them and slow down, sure, but they make themselves easier to target in doing so.  Lastly, you COULD mine a planet for defensive measures, but that should probably be a Galactic Wonder, since it would be a massive undertaking.



thanks for your comment

I see what you mean by walling off sections of space which is a very valid point, but consider the Starbase or even a single ship cant be moved through without engaging it, so it appears the Starbase is essentially omnipresent in the hex so why not a mine field. The 3 dimensional aspect of space is a concern I know. A way to imagine it, is that the field is dispersed throughout the hex and conceivably have the "ability" to react to intruders.

I was thinking they would be used to "reserve" a planet for later colonization, prevent a transport from getting through , protect your borders. Even wall off an ascension crystal. But yeah protect your planets starbases and Hypergates etc.

There is no way to kill of ships without declaring war or using a privateer. I personally dont like it when I am invaded without consent lol.

the ships just show up and take my resources , set up starbases , colonize in my space etc.. and I dont want  (or am unable ) to declare war to stop this. The mines provide a way to deal with scenarios not otherwise covered. A pacifist or defensive strategy would be enhanced, create a dug in position , as in war , the dug in enemy is really hard to beat. Also would enhance your attacks by not having to constantly create defensive ships and let your offense roll on..

maintenance on ships is also avoided ? sometimes I cant afford to maintain all the ships so I could afford a defensive field perhaps.

your galactic wonder is a great addition !

 

thanks again

JJ :)

 

True, but think about it, to be effective, the mine field wouldn't have to COMPLETELY physically block ships from passing through.  It would need only be dense enough to force enemy ships to slow down and be careful.  Friendly ships passing through are not in the midst of battle, and so are unaffected.  But an enemy ship being constantly shot at?  The slowdown would be crippling.

There SHOULD be a way to try and enforce borders without necessarily provoking war, I'll grant you that.  Dunno why that's not been explored in the diplomacy options, but unrealistic mines would just break the immersion.

Reply #4 Top

yeah ,

Quoting JerkClock, reply 3

True, but think about it, to be effective, the mine field wouldn't have to COMPLETELY physically block ships from passing through. It would need only be dense enough to force enemy ships to slow down and be careful. Friendly ships passing through are not in the midst of battle, and so are unaffected. But an enemy ship being constantly shot at? The slowdown would be crippling.

There SHOULD be a way to try and enforce borders without necessarily provoking war, I'll grant you that. Dunno why that's not been explored in the diplomacy options, but unrealistic mines would just break the immersion.

yeah, slowing it down would help. and also would allow you to research defenses in fields rather than more speed. And the borders are just non existent really. I thought by dispersing them every other hex would create the effect needed. Maybe it could be an OPTION ? not essential but another setting for those who like the idea and just dont allow mines if you choose.

then we could see if the players like it...

trial and error

JJ :)

Reply #5 Top

As I see it, there are two ways to approach any concept for GC3.

1) A pseudo realistic approach, whereby we justify the idea in real-world terms. I say "pseudo" because actual real world terms need to be somewhat flexible to even work in a game. For example, for all we know, there just isn't a way to go faster than light and therefore the entire game might not make sense.

2) Purely in game terms. Completely abstract value. In this way we suggest a feature would be "convenient" or "fun" or "needed to allow X". In general, method #1 is often taken too seriously, while method #2 whether we like it or not, is always a big factor, if the game is to actually function well.

 

Using these two methods I see pros and cons to the idea of "mines". 

 

I will start with method #2, because it actually makes the best case for incorporating mines or "something" into the game.

1) Would it be fun? Sure. No one is likely to object strongly to a new toy. Furthermore, some players clearly like defensive gameplay.

 

2) What is the aim of the mines? To passively defend something. Should this be territorial borders or should this be discreet items like a planet or shipyard? Posts regarding territorial borders come up repeatedly and GC3 has a "vague" system of borders where they matter in some ways, and in other ways are completely irrelevant. Because they are not actually borders, they are actually influence, but the diplomacy calls them borders and get's confused by the matter.

I sadly don't see mines practically solving the territorial border issue people have. Several reasons, firstly, in order to defend a border with mines, the number of mines necessary would be enormous.... and I mean in game terms, we will deal with real life terms later. Think how many asteroid mining facilities you end up building... that is the most likely method for mines to be employed by the game, and it would result in a massive amount of new game objects. Their expense would have to be very minimal for them to be worthwhile, and then, their ability pretty damn impressive to convince a player to build so many objects. It's cumbersome and it wouldn't be fun on most maps.

So the only way to employ these rationally, would then to have a single object with a very large area of effect. That would work, but it would be another interface to consider, would still visually have to be represented, and the AI would have a big problem with path-finding through space.

So I do not believe there is a good way to implement the feature as "territory control". The border problem needs a different fix (namely representation on the map and diplomatic rules and AI changes.

 

3) This leaves us with using mines to defend discreet objects, such as planets or shipyards.

But lets ask ourselves something... Why? What is unique about a mine field that defends a planet or shipyard, versus say, 2-3 ships? Ultimately, it's a weapon that attacks ships, and presumably wouldn't be mobile.

How is that different than building a few medium hulls with a bunch of weapons and no engines? In game terms, it isn't. You could make a few tweaks though to give some uniqueness though. For example:

  • Mines could reduce the health of the incoming attack fleet by 10%.
  • Mines could use a separate move to attack them first, eating moves from the opponent fleet.
  • Mines could be deployed only by a mine ship for a credit cost, or just be deployed on the map for credits, and not need shipyard production.
  • Mines could have zero upkeep.
  • Etc.

Ultimately though, these or other changes are going to be mostly illusory, if mines are made more powerful than ships to defend a planet you ruin the balance and could easily end up with a GC3 version of World War I... where defense has more power than offense. It would make the game pretty un-fun in my opinion.

This means mines must be cheap, but of relatively weak power. 

4) What do mines accomplish that some other (and probably more realistic) defensive structure couldn't? Nothing in my opinion. Mines could easily be "Orbital defense grids" or we could look into rehabilitating Military Star Bases into actually defending planets. Orbital fortresses with some mobility make more sense in general... but now lets talk about psuedo realism.

 

Lets return to method #1, pseudo realism. Basically... do mines "make sense"? My answer to this is generally going to be "no".

1) Obviously, space is three dimensional. There is some conflict here, because GC is actually 2 dimensional... but in general, ships and other units don't ever "Have to" engage another unit because of space... you can almost always move around your target, you get attacked in space because you ran out of moves and another unit chased you down. Static defenses in this environment are extremely weak. You never need engage enemy starbases if you don't want to, and can move around them.

But real life has few or no examples of 3d mine fields... and GC3 is basically 2D, so lets just put aside the whole "I'll go above" idea. 

How about in 2D? Are mines effective at guarding large territories? No. Generally armies, navies, have always found easy counters to mine fields on any strategic level. Vast mine fields between countries are seen to have pretty menial military value and have little deterrent to a determined force. Naval terms are probably the best analogy for us, and in this case mines never guard a strategic territory... the ocean is just too damn big.

For examples... why didn't the English manage to mine the English Channel or heck, the Atlantic ocean during WWII? Because its just too big an area. Mines were used to some good effect to guard discreet areas. Bays, ports, etc. could have mines deployed. For example the mines near Gallipoli of the Ottoman empire gave the British navy some trouble as they attempted to force the straits there.

So mines in space, MIGHT make some sense to defend a discreet area. Say a planet, shipyard, or other object.

But again... we are talking VAST areas. Space isn't like an ocean... it's inconceivably bigger, which is why there are so few games that try to realistically portray it, because they would be extremely hard for a player to fully grasp, and they likely wouldn't be very fun. The larger area you wish to protect, the more mines you need. All for what? The glory of not putting an engine on the damn thing?

 

2) Have static defenses worked well in a 2D environment? Yeah a little... but even then... consider the overall failure of castles to repel enemy armies during the medieval European age... consider the failure of the fortresses in Belgium during WWI, or the failure of the Maginot Line in France WWII, or the failure of basically any bunker complex today. Ultimately, static defenses are generally a loser's bet. 

Just look at how heavy melee infantry fail against ranged cavalry units (like the battle of Carrhae or basically anything involving the Mongols) and you get an idea of just how sadly ineffectual static or slow forces are versus mobility.

 

3) What exactly do we mean by a "mine" in space anyways. Does it physically attach to it's target? Does it simply explode? Does it attack with a laser, or a gun? How does it keep position? Does the mine actually only work once?

If you actually start trying to design a mine in space, you quickly end up with a semi-mobile satellite with a ranged weapon, because space is so damn big and being out-ranged is so easy, because space is also incredibly open. If the mine is "low range" you suddenly need more of them to cover the same area as a lesser number of long ranged mines. So pretty quickly we begin losing the identity of a minefield, and would more accurately have a "Defense Grid".

A defense grid would at least have the advantage of doing damage without necessarily committing suicide, so the return on investment might be more than a single battle, even if you are defeated there would be salvage... if your "space mines" actually explode there would never be any salvage to recover and you would lose at least one mine to even the tiniest of enemy units. Whereas a defense grid might happily vaporize the tin can that is thrown at it and waste nothing.

 

4) So minefields are A) very unlikely to work well in three dimensional space, B-) would be massively expensive, C) would have little ROI because they would literally be a one-use weapon, D) by the time you overcame technical issues, you end up with a series of missile launchers, drone fighters, or defense Satellites, not a traditional mine field... E) even if we ignore a lot of these issues, they weren't even very effective in real life in a 2D environment...

 

 

So my conclusion is this... mines don't tend to exist in space games for good reason... from a realism perspective they are very unrealistic, and from a game's abstract perspective, they simply don't need to exist, as other tools already exist to defend you, and are generally more efficient. Can mines be fun? Certainly. Do I think we should add them to GC? Sure... I'd call them a "Orbital Defense Grid" make it a object build around a planet to add to its defense, and call it a day.

Biggest problem though, is that it will not solve the "my borders mean nothing" problem in the game. To solve that, we need to A) Define borders, but then separately define "Influence" for culture. B-) Teach the AI to care about borders, and C) have a diplomatic system that works with borders.

The game completely works without these things though... it's just psychologically unsatisfying that the AI constantly ignores your over-blown borders (influence), that you've formed a sentimental attachment to. In GC currently, control of territory depends on your ability to guard it with fleets, and your willingness to commit to war with everyone. It's not what I would have designed but it does function and allows for the AI to grab planets and resources you are not working hard enough to grab yourself.

Reply #6 Top

 

 

I know it's not what you need to make your dream come true, but I just finished a space-mine design for you, it'll be a custom component in the next version of GRM. That field of 7 is a medium hull I cooked up in 30 seconds. So you could design your defensive ships to look like mine fields if nothing else.

Tried to emulate a really classic mine look.

Reply #7 Top

Gauntlet THANK YOU so much for your input !! very nice creation even if it was fast , doesn't decrease its appeal.

your ideas are very good, and you have vast knowledge of war etc.. your perspective is fantastic.

Quoting Gauntlet03, reply 5

Mines could reduce the health of the incoming attack fleet by 10%.
Mines could use a separate move to attack them first, eating moves from the opponent fleet.
Mines could be deployed only by a mine ship for a credit cost, or just be deployed on the map for credits, and not need shipyard production.
Mines could have zero upkeep.

1.mines are not singular , they are a field with a great number perhaps millions , our imaginations can take us there

2.invisible providing a reason for caution

3.imagined to be 3D

4. relatively permanent

5. they possess the unique ability to damage individual systems

6. they would free up resources for attack if you are so inclined

7. if they can be placed by credits then many could be placed in rapid order

**************************************************************************************************

Mines did have 3 dimensional application in the water as in Tokyo Bay , the mines were tethered to the bottom with long cables of varying lengths to blast submarines etc..

And yes , I would think the space mines would be like mobile buoys rapidly closing in on any intruder and detonating. Automated active defense.

Recon would be more important for sure.

The Mine Fields I propose would be invisible like the old type only detectable by a sweeper or a spider citizen on a ship. The invisible aspect is one of the best arguments. This would require much more caution , as of now , there really is no fear of going wherever unless the opponent has superior ships

perhaps as in real life a ship could get lucky and pass through undamaged , this too.. is interesting.

**********************************************************************************************************

The standard mine ignores shields and damages random internal systems , nothing else in the game does.

***Argonne Accumulator*** type would be a new weapon that gathers strength over the entire game and is indestructible. It is essentially a space hazard.

***Black Hole Bomb or Mine*** type is another new weapon , used on a ship it becomes a Kamikaze ship that likely would be underestimated by attackers. A deceptive ship that can destroy a battleship or frigate seems very interesting to me.

Placed in space .. it would create perhaps a permanent functioning black hole. If temporary as I described , is still a powerful secret weapon.

We have no ability to ram other ships or explode our ship to damage the enemy. This is a standard tactic of a suicide squad. A desperation weapon.

teaching the AI anything seems difficult and teaching them to respect borders would go a long way to solving my issue with borders. Aside from teaching them, punish anyone for zipping in to your space without a declaration of war. It is invasion , so should be penalized or prior permission obtained through open border diplomacy. I recall the violation of the neutral zone in Star trek to be a deadly decision.

!!!! the defense grid !!!! seems good to me and yes , I did like defense being king in ww1.  However, protection eventually gives more freedom to attack and is not boring, chess is not boring because you have to guard your king. I mentioned that instead of spending money on defensive ships , the mines hold off transports etc.. so it would lead to more aggression and not less. it can free up resources for building better attackers and more of them.

I love your idea to have no maintenance , this was one of my thoughts and benefits a poorer faction. Can still hold out a bit , until better tech is researched. The dog pile effect would be blunted as well. Complete reliance was never the plan, you cant fight a defensive war forever , but slowing the enemy , making all factions reconsider hepping up a fast transport to take over multiple planets in a single turn is ludicrous to me. At the very least the population should fight back

Quoting Gauntlet03, reply 5

C) would have little ROI because they would literally be a one-use weapon

the mines would be relatively permanent until removed making them worth building. because they are not singular but many, over time they would grow weaker from explosions. So it would take many ships to destroy or punch a hole in the line. Unless you have the sweeper

The pirates and minor races could use this tech fortifying their bases or planets so you would have to think twice before just rolling in to the minor or weak race planet. I think strengthening the weaker races is a great positive.

***discussion on border control without declaring war*** against all invaders, which now does result in war with every race.. yes we should address this aspect.

I still would like a way to secure a territory or a precursor planet without war. Until I can colonize or research .

Quoting Gauntlet03, reply 5

A defense grid would at least have the advantage of doing damage without necessarily committing suicide

Again, thanks for your design of the defensive web !!

JJ :)

Reply #8 Top

Looking into the mines of WW1 I found a battle for Messines and hill 60 where the allies broke through using mines to break up the 3 year stalemate, dashing 25000 troops instantly and advancing 3000 yards after being bogged down in trench warfare.

for 2 years a honeycomb of tunnels were dug under the Germans on the ridge and MINED then they shelled them following up with a mine blast heard all the way to London !! It was the single most powerful blast of warfare ever , up to that point

showing mines were used to break a stalemate , offensively and effectively.

 :hot:  

Reply #9 Top

Offensive Defense is nothing new, but hard to pull off, especially when you can't entirely predict your enemy, ever.

Reply #10 Top

There is a reason the Allies couldn't repeat the wonderful (relatively) advances of Messine Ridge... because the unique terrain allowed for it. 

Also, what you are discussing is hardly use of "mines" it's use of explosives and a practice known as "sapping". If I found a way to fire a mine out of a cannon and have it explode on top of an enemy... that isn't a "mine" it's an artillery barrage.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting Gauntlet03, reply 10

There is a reason the Allies couldn't repeat the wonderful (relatively) advances of Messine Ridge... because the unique terrain allowed for it. 

Also, what you are discussing is hardly use of "mines" it's use of explosives and a practice known as "sapping". If I found a way to fire a mine out of a cannon and have it explode on top of an enemy... that isn't a "mine" it's an artillery barrage.

yes it is artillery when shot out , why not use the black hole bomb to shoot out ? sounded cool to me and the Argonne device

the video I watched said it was mines and so I accepted the account of the documentary.. anyway I still like mines .. I guess you dont... . seemingly.. its ok , but why not just figure out a way for it to work over a large area ? Am I wrong to think that you are very much opposed to the idea ? 

Quoting JerkClock, reply 9

Offensive Defense is nothing new, but hard to pull off, especially when you can't entirely predict your enemy, ever.

thats why they are only visible to friendly units or detectors

 it would be a great additional tool. I enjoyed them in a space warfare game I had as a lad

Just a little nostalgia and thinking it could be applied to our fun GC3

 

Reply #12 Top

Gauntlet

We played by snail mail and I always hoped someday the old game would be made into a PC game.. I belonged to a club to play blitzkrieg, flat top, squad leader and other war games by mail, we had ratings and a membership fee + card. Our die rolls were resolved by consulting stock market prices

 your point of defending starbases and planets was spot on and your defensive web is still the best application , I was hoping....for more

 

Reply #13 Top

Does anyone like the idea ? besides me ? If not I will give up... ok

Reply #14 Top

Quoting jabberjaws, reply 13

Does anyone like the idea ? besides me ? If not I will give up... ok

I like the idea, but there are only so many ways to do it w/o breaking suspension of disbelief.

Reply #15 Top

thank you , I hope there will be some application at least.. the energy web that gauntlet made will be fun , I have not tried it yet... have you ?

I will continue to lobby for mines , argonne accumulators and black hole bombs

JJ :)