wpkelley41

Join Date 09/2012

+11

AI Simply rush building Colony ships from turn 1.

Can someone clear something for me. As I watched the videos during the wait for Crusade, one of the features I was most eager for was the return to a slower experience. In short, no more starting with a shipyard, colony ship and all the tools necessary to colonize space. I loved the idea of having to go "back" to developing these things. More realistic, I imagined. Well, as I began moving my races from the core game into the Crusade files, I ran SOAK tests on each to be certain they had no fatal flaws. To my surprise, I noticed everyone of them were rush building and spitting out colony ships within a turn or two! How is that any different?

Further, I started a game with 25 opponents on an Insane map. Naturally, I was relatively close to someone each time. Every time I ran into someone, they already had a colony ship heading toward a system I just discovered.

My questions are: 1) Do I need to perhaps turn off a pregame option? Maybe slow the tech pace, (an option I don't see changing rush building.) Also, I need to point out I made certain every one of my customs did NOT start with a colony ship.

2) Did I simply misunderstand when I heard the developers explain they were going back to the original concept of "the moment Cid Meier's Civilization game ended." In other words, space exploration has just been discovered, not mastered.

Thanks to anyone who can lend some insight.

All in all, Crusades is the best change I could have hoped for. I'm really just checking to see if I am doing something fundamentally incorrect.

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I'd like to know how the hell they get all the administrators to do that.

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Are they rush building 1 or 2, or more like 10?

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wpkelley41

Join Date 09/2012

+11

I'm not sure. The point is, why rush build at all? How is that different from starting with a colony ship like in the basic GalCiv3?

I have a simple solution. An option to reduce the credits we start with...like 0?

Anyone?

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I've been waiting on reviews and forum posts before putting another twenty bucks into this game.

If the AI is majorly cheating on Colony spam from the first turn..... I just saved some money.

I hate colony spam. Makes it feel like the game is playing you instead of you playing the game.

I'll be curious to see if this gets addressed.

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There was a lot of criticism about the previous version of the game where the AI didn't expand at all, or very slowly. That made the AI look really dumb. Now it does expand pretty aggressively. I don't mind the AI rapid expansion because I use about half the number of suggested players per map so there's more room to grow.

Also, the AI does use administrators, I have enabled the console command and use the 'fow' and 'god' commands to watch the AI play. The only question I have is if the AI is using the FOW. I can't say for certain that it isn't, but if the AI is using the FOW it gets really, really, really lucky every time it launches a colony ship towards a system and, "well look at that, a habitable planet - lucky me!" But I think I've read comments by Stardock saying the AI cannot see through the FOW.

What would be nice is if the AI had different expansion personalities based on traits because as of now, it seems that every AI expands the same. Another cool thing would be able to pre-negotiate systems with the AI, say "I will give you this and this tech, don't colonize this planet" would be a nice feature.

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Quoting Badbonez,

reply 5

The only question I have is if the AI is using the FOW. I can't say for certain that it isn't, but if the AI is using the FOW it gets really, really, really lucky every time it launches a colony ship towards a system and, "well look at that, a habitable planet - lucky me!" But I think I've read comments by Stardock saying the AI cannot see through the FOW.

I'm not sure if a "soak" game is different from a regular game, but I have seen the AI do things in a soak game that I think can be done only if the AI can see through part of the FOW or know things it shouldn't know. These are pre-Crusade games. I haven't tried one in Crusade yet.

I ran enough "soak" games to be convinced the AI that is playing the race I started with could see all habitable planets within 15 tiles of my (its) starting planet, but could not see any at 18 tiles and beyond. I never could determine anything for 16 and 17 tiles away. Also, the AI could send a freighter to planets that were many, many, many tiles away (well beyond the FOW and probably beyond its traveling range) and send constructors to Artifacts that were also far, far way.

The AI would also hire a good Mercenary ship and send it directly to undiscovered pirate shipyards to destroy them. It didn't seem to notice pirate ships until it got close to them, but not close enough to see them.

The AI was the one that took over the race I started with, so I could see what the AI could and couldn't see. I didn't use any other commands besides "soak". Again, I don't think the AI can do these things unless it knows more than it should based on the FOW. I should mention that I started the game with all AI on Normal.

If a "soak" game is supposed to be the same as a regular game, then there is probably some code buried somewhere that gives these bonuses, intentional or not, just like the code that Brad found that gave money by accident to the AI.

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Brad says in another thread that the real purpose of cash on hand is to rush-buy stuff. If the AI is rush-buying a couple of colony ships in the first few turns, that just puts in on par with human players. That's good. NOT rush-buying stuff is problem for the AI.

You can rush-buy a couple of colony ships in the first few turns, but after that you run into admin/cash issues which should prevent a normal player from blitz-colonizing. (The basic complaint against GC3:Vanilla)

On the other hand, if the AI is rush-buying a dozen colony ships up front, then something is very fishy about that.

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Right now I really can't think of anything better to do with my money than rush buy the starport and a colony ship. I can usually find a decent planet to put it on which gives me a great start.

From there it's not always worth the money to rush more...but it's foolish not to do the first one

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

Quoting wpkelley41,

reply 3

I'm not sure. The point is, why rush build at all? How is that different from starting with a colony ship like in the basic GalCiv3?

I have a simple solution. An option to reduce the credits we start with...like 0?

Anyone?

Why would that be fun?

Is it not better to allow people to begin executing on their unique strategy from the start.

When I get an expansionist AI near by, I am happy. It takes many colony ships to colonize planets. It takes 1 transport to take them from them.

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Hmm as far as I can see the AI stops building colony ships after it has acquired the planets it wants. I notice in diplomacy screen it has one or two colony ships kicking around it doesn't need.

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wpkelley41

Join Date 09/2012

+11

Thank you for responding Frogboy. The purpose of my original post was not criticism. When I watched the development videos, I must have misunderstood. I thought you guys mentioned going back to the "beginnings" of space exploration. I was looking forward to the slow development of expansion. I guess I was surprised that the shipyard was removed from the initial inventory, but still an option to be rush purchased on turn 1. I guess I was hoping to develop my home world before a colonizing frenzy. The only difference now is that is not a viable option. If I concentrate on my home world, I'm afraid I will fall hopelessly behind.

Does that make sense?

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lyssailcor

Join Date 02/2004

+28

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 9

When I get an expansionist AI near by, I am happy. It takes many colony ships to colonize planets. It takes 1 transport to take them from them.

If is't meanwhile fixed that only expansionist AIs do that and not everybody ...

Regarding FOW: I read on many occasions now that the AIs are meanwhile supposed to be subject to FOW as well, but other posts about observations of players lead me to the suspicion that somewhere the AI uses accidentally a function like findNextHabitablePlanet() instead of findNextDiscoveredHabitablePlanet() when sending out their colony ships ... ?

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Publius of NV

Join Date 08/2002

+231

Regarding FOW: Elsewhere Frogboy posted a performance trace that showed the AIs were spending 20% of their turn figuring out what they could and could not see in the FOW.

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lyssailcor

Join Date 02/2004

+28

Quoting Publius of NV,

reply 13

Regarding FOW: Elsewhere Frogboy posted a performance trace that showed the AIs were spending 20% of their turn figuring out what they could and could not see in the FOW.

That doesn't preclude my suspicion that the AI may somewhere use a wrong function ...

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