science world specialization

Today i just noticed that the first level science building is more efficient in terms of science output per maintenance cost than the second level ones?

Anyway, if my logic is correct, on a science world, this means i am better off filling up all the tiles available for science with first level science buildings before bothering to start upgrading them?

I never noticed this before because it is completely counter intuitive.... now it makes me wonder is there much more of this counter intuitive stuff going on that i should look out for in this game?

For example, on a manufacturing world, should i fill all the first level factories tiles before upgrading them? What about markets on a finance world?

 

 

 

21,601 views 10 replies
Reply #1 Top

Yes... filling a planet is more efficient than upgrading existing structures.

No... output per maintenance is not the best gauge of efficiency.  Bcs are easy to find, output per tile is more important as space is far more limited than money.  If you need to save bcs watch your ship components, such as 3rd or higher tier life support modules, as you can loose a lot of economic efficiency quickly there.

Also... scrapping an improvement and adding a farm once your pop is maxed is ultimately more productive than most basic improvements.

Reply #3 Top

One more good reason to turn off auto-upgrade

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Go4Celerity, reply 1

Yes... filling a planet is more efficient than upgrading existing structures.

No... output per maintenance is not the best gauge of efficiency.  Bcs are easy to find, output per tile is more important as space is far more limited than money.  If you need to save bcs watch your ship components, such as 3rd or higher tier life support modules, as you can loose a lot of economic efficiency quickly there.

Also... scrapping an improvement and adding a farm once your pop is maxed is ultimately more productive than most basic improvements.

 

Thanks for that.

I am usually rushing science structures on at least 1 science world pretty much right from the start of the game (since planets don't seem to want to build these on their own... well not at any kind of useful rate). So i am going to be filling that planet with as many first level science structures as i can fit (leaving some space for other things). Then once the first science planet is full, i would then be better off upgrading those structures rather than rushing first level structures on the next science planet rite?

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Go4Celerity, reply 1

Also... scrapping an improvement and adding a farm once your pop is maxed is ultimately more productive than most basic improvements.

No, it's not. It depends on what the multipliers and base production are and can be, which depends on empire bonuses, local starbase bonuses, planet bonuses, planet tile count, planet tile configuration, the improvements you have, which improvements you use, how you cluster them, etc. The optimal build for any given planet balances farms and factories (or, more accurately, base production and output multipliers), it isn't simply "maximize this and ignore that."

Simple example: Let's say I have a planet with 50 production and +100% manufacturing, and I can replace a factory with a farm to change the production to 60 and the manufacturing bonus to +75%. Assuming 100% of output is in manufacturing, making that change would increase my output from 100 manufacturing to 105 manufacturing. What happens when I remove another factory and reduce the manufacturing multiplier to +50% but increase the base production to 70? My output goes from 105 manufacturing to 105 manufacturing*. What if I drop another factory (thus dropping to +25% manufacturing) in favor of another farm that (eventually) gives an additional 10 production? My output drops from 105 manufacturing to 100 manufacturing. There is clearly a balance to be struck between output multiplier structures and base production structures.

*Since by this point in the example there is no long-term increase in output by replacing a factory with a farm, replacing that factory with a farm is in fact worse than leaving the factory in place, as the world will see an immediate drop in output due to the destruction of the factory and will not exceed its previous output even after the population has reached the new cap. It can also be the case that replacing the first factory wasn't a great decision, either, because there is a number of turns T such that for N < T turns after the destruction of the factory you would have had more total output from the planet by keeping the factory than by replacing it with a farm, and if T is too large then the alteration won't pay dividends soon enough to have been worthwhile. (E.g. if replacing my factory with a farm will only break even a thousand turns from the time I make the change, is it really worth it? How likely is it that I'd still be playing, or that even if I was still playing that the game would go on long enough afterwards for the payoff to actually matter?)

Now, granted, there are enough empire-wide output bonuses, particularly if playing with relics, that it can frequently be the case that the optimal configuration for a planet is to only build farms on said planet, but such is not always the case. The approval and coercion mechanics make the output maximization problem harder as well; approval because it's theoretically possible to need more morale bonuses than you get from the techs, nearby economic starbases, relics, etc and so you might need to compare a build with morale structures to one without (though with the approval production modifier curve being what it is in 1.5, it's very rarely the case that you'd ever want an approval structure instead of a farm or factory), and coercion because the mechanic theoretically makes it possible for a mixed-output world to be superior to a single-output world in terms of total output (which means that if you're looking to maximize total output rather than a specific output, you need to maximize the three-output equation rather than the single-output equation, and that's a much more difficult problem; you may need to go to a two- or three-output solution anyways since the coercion mechanic makes it possible for a given output type to be maximized at some point before 100% of production is dedicated to that output type), and then there's the issue with coercion acting on output again through a poorly-rationalized approval penalty.

Reply #6 Top

Update:

Well this game that i have been playing, it was coming together quite well...... i had a massive hold back in the early stages because my survey ships cleverly avoided anomalies like the plague, it was quite amazing,,, so i thought the AI will have a good head start now so i will have a fun battle later on.

 I had the Drengin on one higher difficulty level than the rest, and they were miles away so i thought they will be nice and strong when we finally meet.... but nope, they must have had a very crapful starting cluster indeed because the Thalans were kicking their ass and they were like 2nd weakest race around.

I hate it when that happens, darn, it was developing well that game too!.... the Kryn are usually a nice secondary race to enjoy killing just because their stupid, but its never quite as satisfying as killing Drengin.

So this is about my fifth game so far,,,, how come the Yor always turn out so weak each time? I think i might have to boost their level as well?

Incidentally, i never finished any of my games yet - either the game does not develop in a way that is interesting and i quit, or when it is interesting i end up getting too powerful compared to the AI and then its no longer interesting and i quit.

The game i really want is where the Drengin spawn a long way off and don't force me to deplete their resources so they can be free to focus on consuming other races and grow very strong ready for the later game huge battle! That's what i am looking for

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Mystikmind, reply 6

Update:


Incidentally, i never finished any of my games yet - either the game does not develop in a way that is interesting and i quit, or when it is interesting i end up getting too powerful compared to the AI and then its no longer interesting and i quit.

Thought I'd mark that with a hi-liter so the screeners don't miss it.

I no longer find Gal Civ III fun.  So I don't play.  I do come to the forums to gripe and offer suggestions and reinvest in my hope that it will someday, again, be fun.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Go4Celerity, reply 7

I no longer find Gal Civ III fun.  So I don't play.  I do come to the forums to gripe and offer suggestions and reinvest in my hope that it will someday, again, be fun.

 

I am still hopeful it is just a matter of getting the right map...... You know, i had exactly the same problem in Galciv2 - that is, getting that balance where the AI is not too strong at the beginning, but also is able to give you a 'sustained' good fight mid to late game so you actually have a worthy opponent to test all your hard earn't achievements. .... otherwise, what is the point in achieving them?

 

What i learn't in Galciv2 is that the Drengin are no good. They are the light that burns brightly, but put up too much sustained resistance and they implode amazingly fast and its usually right when you were just beginning to have the most fun of the game!!!

The best battle i ever had in Galciv2 was against a Thalan Arcean alliance. They really had my back against the wall in a massive slugfest full on sustained battle that i just could not out muscle them,,,, it was brilliant,,, i actually had to do a sneaky cheating flanking attack with heaps of transports taking planets in order to gain the upper hand.

I will always remember that battle so fondly,,,,, it is how the game should work on a regular basis,,, then everyone would know how brilliant this game can be

 

*What i hate seeing are AI's that flop just when things started getting fun*

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Mystikmind, reply 8

What i learn't in Galciv2 is that the Drengin are no good.

What was the last version of GalCiv 2 you played? v2.04? If so, then the Drengin most likely failed, because they couldn't get the critical mass necessary for a long-lasting war. The AI used by the Drengin, Korath, and Yor had a bug which prevented it from colonising outside of its sphere of influence. This made those three races much weaker, because everyone else would out-colonise them. In v2.20, this bug (and countless more) is fixed. So, maybe it's time to give the Drengin another try? See if they are still as bad as before?

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 9


Quoting Mystikmind,

What i learn't in Galciv2 is that the Drengin are no good.



What was the last version of GalCiv 2 you played? v2.04? If so, then the Drengin most likely failed, because they couldn't get the critical mass necessary for a long-lasting war. The AI used by the Drengin, Korath, and Yor had a bug which prevented it from colonising outside of its sphere of influence. This made those three races much weaker, because everyone else would out-colonise them. In v2.20, this bug (and countless more) is fixed. So, maybe it's time to give the Drengin another try? See if they are still as bad as before?

 

That's interesting? Well what i do know is that the Yor do seem to be noticeably weak in Galciv3?

 

I have just started playing a game this week where i put the Yor 1 level higher than the others but still they are the weakest race again?