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Has Microsoft opened the door for Linux

Has Microsoft opened the door for Linux

So my question is that since Microsoft has chosen to make changes to it's Windows OS will it have the effect of Desktop PC users giving Linux (Ubuntu) a look at and try on their desktops? 

Is there enough software available that the user could transition to Linux?

Okay, this is not meant to bash Windows 8 but to ask a valid question when it comes down to the Desktop PC.  Lets keep it friendly.

194,568 views 54 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Phoon, reply 25


Quoting Seleuceia, reply 22

Quoting kona0197, reply 10Seleuceia - Your last post is full of statements that are simply not true.

Care to elaborate?

 
Nothing TO elaborate. Your post was SPOT ON with some of the most logical and valid points presented. 

 

i agree

Reply #27 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 5
Now, let us instead assume that the W8 is in fact a significant improvement and a fantastic UI, but most people are too stupid or too lazy to learn or understand it....if that is indeed the case, they sure as hell aren't going to be any more willing to learn a Linux UI (unless it is near identical to W7)...

The main reason why W8 turns off people is because of its UI...as far as I'm concerned, Linux distros don't solve that issue because they too have different UIs from what people are expecting

Take a look at the top Linux distros. The UI is incredibly easy to learn. Even as easy as Windows.

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 5
Even if we completely ignore the UI issue, there are a host of problems with Linux...a big one (for many, the biggest) is thattoo much software is only available on windows

There are many programs in Linux that do the same thing the Windows version does. There are no shortage of Windows replacement programs. And you can run Windows apps inside of Linux with a program called WINE.

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 5
.in many cases Linux users simply cannot get the most recent versions of graphics card drivers (NVIDIA is the big problem) and cannot get the most optimized chipset drivers (in general, Linux systems run hotter because the driver controlling cooling and what not is more optimized for Windows)...that is, of course, assuming there even is a Linux driver (in most cases there are, but new tech often has problems until someone develops a Linux driver)...

I have no problem getting drivers for Linux. I will agree that they are not the latest drivers in some cases. Linux systems running hotter than Windows systems is a load of bull. I have found Linux systems to use the system resources better than Windows.

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 5
Then there is the "out of the box" aspect...windows in general has more "built in" features that are needed by the average user...even simple features like playing audio files is not doable by all Linux distros without going out of your way to download extra software

Absolutely not true. Many of the top distros have third party codecs built in, and the ones that do not simply ask you if you want to download the codecs. One download, one install, done.

Quoting RedneckDude, reply 14
Casual users won't like the need to use terminal "command line" actions to get things done.

Command line is almost a thing of the past. You hardly ever need to use it. The GUI has taken over the command line.

By the way if you dislike Linux, do you use any Android devices? HA!

Reply #28 Top

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
Take a look at the top Linux distros. The UI is incredibly easy to learn. Even as easy as Windows.

I don't disagree with this statement...however, I believe W8 is very easy to learn (and very similar to W7)...therefore, if W7 lovers are complaining about the W8 UI, then I wouldn't be surprised if they would complain about any Linux UI as well...it's not a slant at Linux UIs, but rather a "if A and B are both slightly different than C, and C lovers don't like A simply because it's different, then why would they like B?"...W8 is identical to W7 minus the start menu -- any Linux UI is only going to be more different and therefore more problematic....

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
There are many programs in Linux that do the same thing the Windows version does. There are no shortage of Windows replacement programs. And you can run Windows apps inside of Linux with a program called WINE.

This is true, and I do believe I acknowledged this when I said any task that can be done on Windows can also be done on Linux....the problem is that in many cases you may have to use a different program in order to do that task, and that is not going to be acceptable for many people...

As an example, both Adobe Photoshop and GIMP can be used for graphic design (they complete the same task) but Photoshop lovers are not going to want to have to use GIMP, they are going to want Photoshop....

Of course, you can use WINE to get around this, but there's a catch....it's not a simple matter of "Run WINE, install and run Photoshop"...entire tutorials are needed for the inexperienced user to install and run Photoshop (at least a legitimate version), and it's a similar deal for installing other programs meant for Windows...in many cases you have to install fonts or dll files or whatnot (all via a command prompt) just to get the preferred Windows program to even work properly...this may not be a problem for a computer savvy person, but for the average computer user this is simply too much of a hassle when there is an easier alternative of simply running Windows in the first place....

There are high profile programs that in the eyes of some lack adequate substitutes (Photoshop, AutoCAD, MS Office etc.)...you also have games exclusive to Windows....for either set, is a hassle or not possible to run in Linux...just as an example, one of my Sins friends tried to run the game on his Linux side via wine, but the performance was so poor he had to get a copy of W7 to play the game....WINE is nice but it does not solve everything (unless you are Thoumsin) and does not work for everyone...

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
I have no problem getting drivers for Linux. I will agree that they are not the latest drivers in some cases.

I was never able to get my Nvidia driver to work...the supposedly compatible 314 version didn't work and neither did using Bumblebee...I also never found a good driver for my touchpad...I searched the Internet to death and asked an experienced Linux user for help, and eventually I just said screw it because I basically needed Windows to run most of my software anyway...I'm not a computer pro or Linux expert, but I feel I can think of myself as a fairly computer savvy person and I definitely put a lot of effort into trying to solve the problem, all to no avail...I can't imagine an average computer user trying to get all of that to work on their own....

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
Linux systems running hotter than Windows systems is a load of bull. I have found Linux systems to use the system resources better than Windows.

I cannot personally confirm or deny this from tests on my own system, but my Linux friend casually mentioned it and some research on the Internet shared the same thoughts...maybe a bunch of people are wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but it's my understanding that Intel chips run a little cooler on Windows...never seen anywhere that it was a significant difference but it's just a case in point that Linux drivers sometimes aren't as easy to come by or as good....

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
Absolutely not true. Many of the top distros have third party codecs built in, and the ones that do not simply ask you if you want to download the codecs. One download, one install, done.

I agree with you on a distro like Linux Mint...I don't think you could say the same for something like Linux Arch...not that Arch is the best thing to compare to....if any Linux distro made headway against Windows it would probably be Mint or some type of Ubuntu...

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
Command line is almost a thing of the past. You hardly ever need to use it. The GUI has taken over the command line.

Every time I've found a tutorial explaining how to do something on Linux, it almost always involves the command prompt...I'd say it always involved the command prompt but there may have been that one time I don't remember where everything in the tutorial could be done via the GUI...for the savvy person it isn't unbearable but there is a learning curve and I hate having to look up how to do everything...

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
By the way if you dislike Linux, do you use any Android devices? HA!

I have an iPhone 4 (got it as a gift, can't complain)....I like it, not sure if I love it....when I get my next phone, I'll definitely be looking at all my options, Android and W8 included...anyway...

I don't hate Linux, and I will freely admit that it has advantages over Windows, but I just don't see it replacing Windows anytime in the foreseeable future...

I have installed Vista, W7, and W8 many times on my 2 laptops, and have never had any problem finding and installing the latest drivers I need...I cannot say the same for when I installed Linux...I can play my games and use MS office just fine in Windows; in the past I've used Adobe Photoshop when I did some graphic design; in the near future I'll be using Autodesk Inventor....I would not be able to use all those programs in Linux, and the ones that would work would require some research and effort to get working in Linux...

So my question is that since Microsoft has chosen to make changes to it's Windows OS will it have the effect of Desktop PC users giving Linux (Ubuntu) a look at and try on their desktops?

To answer this question more directly: YES

But, "giving Linux a look" is a lot different than actually using Linux or replacing Windows with it...also, I think the rising popularity with Linux has more to do with the success of certain distro teams (Mint, Ubuntu) and 3rd party software (VLC, GIMP, Office Libre) than with any decision made by Microsoft....

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 28
Of course, you can use WINE to get around this, but there's a catch....it's not a simple matter of "Run WINE, install and run Photoshop"...entire tutorials are needed for the inexperienced user to install and run Photoshop (at least a legitimate version), and it's a similar deal for installing other programs meant for Windows

Actually it's gotten a lot easier. Simply insert a CD and install. Most distros know you are using WINE so it just installs like it would on Windows.

Reply #30 Top

Do you know anything about performance issues, such as what a game or an autocad may run into?  I couldn't personally test it (since I couldn't get my discrete graphics driver to work) but my friend tells me it there is a significant hit to performance (borderline unplayable for the games he was interested in)...this was a couple years ago on a computer with respectable specs...

If that has gotten a lot better and I can get my damn Nvidia driver to work, I'd consider reinstalling Nadia....

Reply #31 Top

Quoting kona0197, reply 27
And you can run Windows apps inside of Linux with a program called WINE.

Unfortunately, not all Windows apps. CS5 and up won't without problems. One should research that with respect to specific, needed or loved apps.

You can check them out here: http://appdb.winehq.org/

(Thanks to Hankers for the link).

Reply #32 Top

I use linux on my work computer, but I use a very specialized flavor of it. My laptop isn't meant for gaming, or high powered cpu endeavors. I use it for data analysis / spreadsheets among other things on the fly.

 

However for my home PC, I don't even dual boot, Win7 all the way for now.

Reply #33 Top

So looking at the replies can one summarize that although not the equal to Windows, Linux under certain conditions could be used by some folks on their desktop PC and satisfy their needs?  

In other words is it becoming closer to being an alternative OS vs Windows and Apple on the desktop PC?  :-"

Reply #34 Top

Quoting Philly0381, reply 33
So looking at the replies can one summarize that although not the equal to Windows, Linux under certain conditions could be used by some folks on their desktop PC and satisfy their needs?

Well look at this way. Google is selling that $250 dollar laptop. It runs Linux. Sells are good. People mostly just want a computer to browse the net, email, word processor, spreadsheets, and listen to music.

Reply #35 Top

Quoting kona0197, reply 34

Well look at this way. Google is selling that $250 dollar laptop. It runs Linux. Sells are good. People mostly just want a computer to browse the net, email, word processor, spreadsheets, and listen to music.

 

typical Kona statement. it sells actually even worse than the SurfaceRT.

http://www.zdnet.com/first-real-world-usage-figures-suggest-chromebooks-are-struggling-7000014102/

the Chromebook is running ChromeOS though. while it has a Linux kernel, it is something completely different than the desktop Linux distros the original post was about.

 

and lets not forget:

https://forums.stardock.com/433659/get;3248307

Quoting kona0197,
No I don't have any version of Linux installed. Decided to go back to Windows XP as my wireless printer does not work with any flavor of Linux.


and:

http://kona0197.wordpress.com/2011/10/10/linux-the-reasons-why-it-will-never-work-for-me/


;)

Reply #36 Top

I think I covered it quite eloquently in reply #2 ....;)

Reply #37 Top

There are quite a few distro's that can easily serve as an out of the box mom&pop OS. Netrunner, Zorin, Mageia 3. The latter is spectacularly easy to install and offers the option to choose between KDE/Gnome /Custom during setup. It comes with Firefox installed and runs smoothly.

If all you do is surf, social network, and a bit of accounting etc it is fine and a great buy for the price of 0$ and can more then adequately replace Windows.

As others have quite rightly pointed out w8=w7 with another UI. Reworking w8 to make it look and behave like w7 is pretty pointless since w7 works fine and will continue to do so for ages.

So it just comes down to a matter of taste. If you like the hideous w8 UI install that and leave it alone. If you do have good taste and you find w8 UI hideous leave w8 be and continue with w7.

Reply #38 Top

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Dunno what you use to write your comments but it's clearly crap ....;)

Reply #39 Top

Moshi do you not pay attention? I use Windows 7. I have since this new machine was built. And yes, linux will not work on a day to day basis for me, but I don't like the way we talk about it around here when you all don't have all of the facts.

Reply #40 Top

Honestly? This is all a rather sterile discussion since WB is not usable on Linux...and I for one find it hard to live w/o WB.

Reply #41 Top

Linux has many skins and programs to implement those skins. No big deal. Why could you noy live without Windowblinds? I've used the default look of Windows for years now.

Reply #42 Top

Quoting kona0197, reply 39

Moshi do you not pay attention? I use Windows 7. I have since this new machine was built. And yes, linux will not work on a day to day basis for me, but I don't like the way we talk about it around here when you all don't have all of the facts.

 

oh, i just found it amusing that you say both "I have no problem getting drivers for Linux." and "my wireless printer does not work with any flavor of Linux." ;)

btw: you're the last person that should be talking about "facts" when you think Chromebooks "Sells are good."


don't get me wrong, Linux is an amazing success story. most of the worlds smartphones and servers and and a large amount of tablets and other smart devices from tvs to refrigerators run on it. it might well already have a larger install base than Windows if you take all these in account. on the desktop it is not there due to several issues mentioned above. that might change in the future with a strong brand name (something like Android notebooks or all-in-one pcs), but i wouldn't bet the house on it.

Reply #43 Top

Quoting DrJBHL, reply 40

Honestly? This is all a rather sterile discussion since WB is not usable on Linux...and I for one find it hard to live w/o WB.

 

you would lack the huge library of skins WindowBlinds has. but i would consider dektop Linux superior for customization in every single aspect technology-wise.

no Photoshop though. maybe in the future the internet gets faster and some of Adobe's applications could run in the cloud. now that would be a serious threat to Windows' market dominance.

Reply #44 Top

Quoting kona0197, reply 41
I've used the default look of Windows for years now.

And you're here because? Superfluous question. I thought this was a customization site.   ;P

Yes, there are many Linux skins...just not the ones I love, done by the artists whose work I've followed, watch develop and admired for years.

Reply #45 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 36

I think I covered it quite eloquently in reply #2 ....

Indeed, you boast your lack of knowledge with admirable pride. I find it characteristic for certain kind of people - they always blurt out the "right" answer as a dogma and they consider arguing it is below them - after all, "it's clear" to "us", isn't it? 

Now back to the original question. 

Is Linux a viable substitute for Windows? Is there enough software?


Well, it strongly depends on what type of user you are. What do you want to do, what your objectives are. 

Do you just want to read mail, browse, play movies and occassional game? Then it's quite sufficient, you may be required to install a few extra codecs, but many distros will give you the option during the installation. Speaking of installation, distros like Ubuntu or Suse have completely GUI based, graphical installation process, you don't have to touch the command line. Same goes for the casual use, KDE for example is very similar to Windows, I use it myself.

Do you want to use specialized software? Are you an artist, designer? Then your favorite application may not have native port. You can do with WINE, but when you absolutely depend on a single application like certain Windows version of Photoshop, CAD, or music composing program, then it's more practical to buy Windows and use it natively.

Are you a programmer, do you want to learn new languages, experiment, create web pages? Then Linux is perfect for you, in fact, Windows is quite a poor substitute in this case. The Windows CLI is still very poor, compilers and interpreters are often commercial, you have to get them and install separately. That said, if you want to develop games, DirectX 11 is probably much better suited than OpenGL that lacks certain important features supported by modern GPUs - like multithreded rendering, etc. The greatest advantage is the availability of huge amount of software you can install from the repositories with a single command. Do you want Python? Fine, you type one command, you can use python. Perl, ruby? No problem. High quality IDEs are available too. 

Do you want to play games? Here it depends on how demanding you are. If you want to play everything, you are better off with Windows, no doubt. But for example Steam has ever-expanding selection of quality Linux-native titles (they want to start a linux-based console), titles like Wargame European Escalation, Portal, Counter Strike, Oil Rush, and more. Not to mention excellent free games like Wesnoth, freecol, Urquan Masters, dwarf fortress, and so on. You can play old games in dosbox without problems. That said, you can do all this in Windows too. Just keep in mind that Linux has games to offer too, just not as many.

Do you want to learn how computers work? Here, I believe, is the strongest point of Linux. You can stay within the gui of your favorite applications, or you can go beyond them and learn something. Recently, I had a complain from a Windows admin that their mail is not working. "I just click the Send button and it ends with an error". For an admin, not a very good effort. You can go further and find out that mail clients connect to TCP port 25, you can telnet to port 25 yourself and what a surprise! The SMTP protocol is text based, the servers are talking to each other. And this one says "4.7.1 Client Host Rejected - Cannot find your hostname". What does it mean? You google it, it means the sender lacks reverse DNS record for his IP. You read a bit about DNS, you understand what reverse records are, you verify with dig command that yours is indeed missing, you ask your ISP to set it up, and voila, your mails are no longer rejected. You have solved a problem yourself, and you have learned more about how computer works. How does it relate to Linux, you might say? Linux is based mostly on text based configurations and modular architecture, many processes that do specialized things, and each one is configurable, and each can produce a log where you can find what's wrong. A good CLI with TAB completion, an editor with syntax highlighting can make your reading of code easier. You can compile programs yourself, you can look into the code and understand sometimes how they work. When you become more experienced, you can perhaps write a patch or two on your own. Windows, on the other hand, is a very closed system that does not like people peeking behind the beautifully painted cover. It's like a moody, growling guy who keeps telling you - nothing to see here, go away. You insist? Find, here are a few incomprehensible numbers, see what you can make of them. Error 0x43221234, see what you can make of that. Oh, you look it up? "System error - contact your MS support". There you go.

To conclude, everyone must decide for himself. Linux distros are no longer a bundle of files that require an expert to install and run. There was a great effort to provide smooth and trouble-free user experience. Most apps (browser, mail client, text editor, etc.) are present with functionality that is sufficient for most users. If you are a flexible, inquisitive person who likes learning new stuff, Linux may be exciting for you. Or it can be a source of enormous frustration. But so can Windows. Both systems are evolving, and both have gone a great length towards quality. And both have problems that won't go away overnight. In the end, you won't really know the answer unless you get your feet wet. 

And there is a great way to do that - many distros including Ubuntu offer LiveCD - an option to boot and run Linux without installing it and altering the filesystem. You can try it, and if you don't like it, just throw the CD away and boot back to Windows from your HD. There is little to lose this way. 

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Reply #46 Top

Quoting Jafo, reply 38

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Dunno what you use to write your comments but it's clearly crap ....

I use some crappy script which comes with wincustomize.com  o_O

Reply #47 Top

Thank you very much Kamamura_CZ, your reply was great and very informative.  :sun:

Reply #48 Top

Quoting DrJBHL, reply 44
And you're here because? Superfluous question. I thought this was a customization site.

Yeah. it is. I used to use skins. I even made a few. Why are you here? :grin: :grin:

Reply #49 Top

To separate fact from your fiction?

Reply #50 Top

Quoting Kamamura_CZ, reply 45
Indeed, you boast your lack of knowledge with admirable pride.

Ah....at last I am admired....;p

Nothing in the Op's questions was missed by my answer....Effusive ebullience not withstanding....;)