LH: Feedback: AI, Balance, Art

After playing a couple of FH games (including on fairly lengthy one, all on challenging world difficulty and ai difficulty) i think i can confidently give the following feedback:

 

Ai:

In all my games the ai was decent enough in the early game, falling a bit behind when it came to the mid game and was outmatched (by at least one order of magnitude (by point rating in the upper right corner of the screen) in the late game). My assessment is that the Ai has no map awareness at all.

Here is what i do: Use the sovereign with the least amount of support troops necessary (else they steal exp) to clear an area that has good tile yields from monsters, especially the lairs. Rush production and unrest reducing buildings in the new founded city and give it unrest reducing enchantments or production increasing enchantments if possible.

 

When i look at the Ai empire and kingdoms there is one glaring difference: it does not clear out monster lairs as it should, this leads to the issue that the ai looses cities to monsters even in the very late game. I am not talking about an occasionally loss, it happens quite often and very predictably.  Usually ogre lairs are the most common threat to ai cities because the armies that they spawn are very capable of defeating city garrisons and the lair defenders are usually strong enough so the ai will not touch them. While this is fine up the mid game, in the late game when the ai easily has the capability, it still does not clear out the lairs and constantly looses cities. This has dire consequences because only a very few ai cities are even close to an average player city.

The problem gets much worse if the ai settles next to wildlands, this will lead to a massive attrition because of monster armies leaving the wildlands, attacking cities.

 

On one hand this is an strategic Ai issue, on the other hand it is also due to horrendous outcomes of automatic battles, which is the only option for the ai, unless it fights against the player. If i had to rely on automatic battles only i would loose much more battles instead of the very very few when i misjudge the difficulty of a fight by a slight margin.

 

On all other accounts the ai does a decent enough job, although i have not looked deeper in it's city development for example. with the current game mechanics the following strategy is obvious:

1) taxes should always be low. there are very few reasons to ever raise them (this is a game design issue, currently you might as well remove tax levels)

2) city placement should be 2 food minimum (i saw the ai found cities on 1 food tiles), 3 production minimum and at least an essence if possible

3) city development should follow the order i described above: gain effective production (production increasing buildings+unrest reducing buildings) as fast as possible, i.e. rush them if possible.

4) research should follow that pattern and only add weapon and  magic techs if necessary. 

5) only produce combat units out of fortress cities which have all unit boosting buildings available (rush them too!). i often see the ai building inferior units across its cities, wasting production instead of building up its cities.

 

 

Balance:

The assassin is the strongest class by far and only because of one trait: +1 dodge per level. I easily get my sovereign and heroes to achieve 70+ evasion rating (in my last game my sovereign had 120+), which means that the only unit to ever harm (not kill, just harm) him would be a very high level hero with +1 accuracy/ per level. secondly the trait tree has two outstanding abilities: the one where you swap places with an enemy unit and get another turn and the guaranteed crit. those two abilities negate casters, archers or any key unit in an enemy army. secondly the armor ignoring traits lead to a much higher effective damage than a warrior with much higher base damage. In my opinion you either have to introduce normalized distribution to accuracy and evasion so you never gain 100% chance to hit and evade or just remove the +1 dodge/level trait. It is heavily abusable by the player.

On that note, lightning hammers should be changed as well. +1 lightning damage per level means that there are only very very few weapons that have higher damage. The issue was fixed for lightning pikes a long time ago, why was the hammer ignored, especially since it comes so early and is very cheap?

 

Another issue with evasion is that there is no real gear for, nor against it. meaning even in high armor gear you can achieve high evasion rating. i don't know if it is intended that assassins run around in full plate (champion armor), dodge every hit and wield big two handed weapons which ignore almost all armor. In my opinion there should be dedicated evasion gear and armor with high defense should reduce evasion. This difference between light and heavy armor would make a world of difference in strategy, thus replayability. Currently the only difference between light and heavy armor is the weight, i.e. you sacrifice a few initiative points in favor of a lot of defense. even if this was the only distinction between light and heavy armor, the fact remains that only early game armor and is light and all late game armor is heavy.

 

Now onto cities:

Certain buildings can lead to heavy abuse, most notably buildings that grant empire wide bonuses to other cities, such as +x food per grain for all cities and +5% hp for all units. The former can lead to 2 food tile cities being able to reach level 5, the latter inflated hp numbers for all units. there comes a certain empire size (i.e. number of cities) where those bonuses yield far too good results, i.e. you will never take the alternative when leveling up your cities.

Other empire wide bonuses such as reducing unrest empire wide, like the onyx throne, are pretty strong, but they do not lead such game changing outcome as the other ones.

 

 

Art:

Let me put this out upfront: i do not like the 3d art style at all. It is a major contributer why i do not like the elemental franchise in general. I do however like the 2d art, especially the cloth map, i only wish there as an option for tactical battles in cloth map mode.

Ignoring my opinion, i think there are way too few assets when it comes to different armor types. in every game my units look the same at some point (all champion armor) and there is little difference (if any at all) between kingdoms and empires in armor style, let alone factions. This is a major contributor to an overall impression that everything looks and feels the same and heavily contributes to visual boredom.

The same is true for cities, unless you zoom in and look at the detail, all cities look the same from a normal viewing distance (look at any city for 1-4 seconds and see if you find any outstanding visual objects). personally i would like an approach as in HoMM5 where cities look widely different between factions (and they are good looking too) or an art style as in cIV/ciV where cities may not have identifying visual qualities but the size is easily recognizable (i.e. you have a visual clue for your most important cities in your realm) and abstract enough to not break the immersion.

I understand that when it comes to visual diversity, a lot of it is dictated by memory usage. If the current art assets are the maximum memory wise, i highly doubt the visual diversity is distributed to match the gameplay distribution of art assets, i.e. you have a lot of tiny different things that rarely gets noticed (like unique looking boots that can only be looted) while the mot common things share too much art.

 

 

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Reply #1 Top

Trained troops do not split or share exp. Other than that I agree with everything you just said, though I'd lean less on the side of nerfing things like +1 dodge per level and lightning hammers, and more on the side of buffing everything else and making the AI more aware of those unit strategies.

 

Reply #2 Top

Very Good Post, art critique aside k1

On one hand this is an strategic Ai issue, on the other hand it is also due to horrendous outcomes of automatic battles, which is the only option for the ai, unless it fights against the player. If i had to rely on automatic battles only i would loose much more battles instead of the very very few when i misjudge the difficulty of a fight by a slight margin.

Main weakness of enemy AI is targeting units they aren't currently beside, they never move away from one unit to strike a more vulnerable target. Also Ive seen AI units spam fire magic against the only unit in my army that resists fire.

Also hilariously I got a tie once in an automatic battle, not a mutual KO but the fight just left people alive in both armies.

In my opinion there should be dedicated evasion gear and armor with high defense should reduce evasion. This difference between light and heavy armor would make a world of difference in strategy, thus replayability. Currently the only difference between light and heavy armor is the weight, i.e. you sacrifice a few initiative points in favor of a lot of defense. even if this was the only distinction between light and heavy armor, the fact remains that only early game armor and is light and all late game armor is heavy.

Very good point, encumbrance could be fixed easily enough to add depth to unit design. Just have encumbrance reduce dodge and initiative by a percent. Say 20/10 for medium and like 40/20 for high. You could also make high encumbrance at 70 instead of 80. Something like yhis really needs to be done in my opinion as encumbrance is a laughably shallow and negligible system currently.

Also I'd love if monk units could get a couple of new items to extend their life.

The assassin is the strongest class by far and only because of one trait: +1 dodge per level. I easily get my sovereign and heroes to achieve 70+ evasion rating (in my last game my sovereign had 120+)

A fair point but that hardly makes assassins the best class. There are some equally broken builds and I think the main advantage super dodge gives is that the AI doesn't counter it well. There are a bunch of spells that could counter it if AI was smart enough to use them.

2) city placement should be 2 food minimum (i saw the ai found cities on 1 food tiles), 3 production minimum and at least an essence if possible

Agree, AI still really dumb at city placement, I'd much prefer it if tiles couldn't have less than 7 resource yield.

 

 

Reply #3 Top

Lot of points that I share, good post.
I'll add some randome thoughs in addition to your points.

1. City placement is plain horrible, I think it's purely random. I've seen with my own eyes (while rushing pioneer vs pioneer) the enemy settling on a clearly inferior tile next to the really good tile I was aiming. Why?
Also, in my latest game, at some point I tried to help Pariden that was being crushed in war. So I went in their territory and cleared the wildlands there for them, as a gift. They ignored the spot, while some turns later I found one of their pioneers founding a city on the other side of the map, on a essenceles tile with no resources nearby.


2. I totally share your view on the assassin, having played one up to level 20. Not only there is the ludicrous dodge, but also the high armor from plate and the insane damage output (200+ crits, with 35%+ crit chance). Only my full fire mage could rival the damage output when I reached a really high number of fire crystals, but with 1/10 of the survivability.
A simple solution to plate on everything (even mages once you get horses), is to slap a -dodge bonus directly on the item itself. Ex: Plate Armor: 10 Armor, -5 Dodge.
Right now the Champions Plate feels mandatory on every hero, the +1 hp bonus per level is insanely good, expecially for mages that have usually low health.


3. I extensively talked and tested the kingdom-wide bonuses and I agree that for late game they can get pretty insane.
Simple solutions would be to put hard caps to it, like total max bonus to hp = 50%.
A maybe more elegant solution would be maybe to apply diminishing returns. Ex: first grocer you get: 5% hp bonus. Second grocer you get: 4.5% bonus. Decrease at every grocer to 0%.


4. I have only one small complain about art. Please please please remove the horses from the character portraits! When you start using horses a lot (and there is no reason not to, in this game), all the unit icons looks the same, and I have to mouseover them every time I want to select a specific one.

Reply #4 Top


Play on a small map with maximum ai opponents and you won't see the results you're seeing now OP. Small maps are the best challenges.....oh and up the difficulty level also....challenging level is hardly challenging when one is mostly exploiting the ai as much as possible. Let's move up to insane or ridiculous eh? ;)

Reply #5 Top


I agree with your observations concerning the interplay between accuracy and dodge.  The simplistic formula used to determine hits has been criticised for months without any acknowledgement from Stardock that there is a serious problem with that part of the game.  Several alternatives have been suggested that work like the damage versus armour formula and these would mean that even ultra high dodge units could still be hit occassionally by ordinary troops and that ultra high accuracy troops would occassionally miss. 

 

But I disagree with your criticism of cities giving global benefits. I like the current abilities and enjoy working out how each type of city can best contribute to the overall economy I'm building. Singling out the Town bonusses giving bonus food and 5% HP / town at level 3 is unfair and unbalancing and removes yet another strategy.  We have already had the rush buying strategies nerfed yet again, spoiling  many players enjoyment and one of my favourite ways of playing.  There are many other global bonusses that have similar effects including the conclave at level 4 (10% global research) and the fortress at level 4 (-10% unrest) and these are arguably even more broken.  Furthermore the research tree allows several techs to be researched multiple times, such as Refined Economics and Refined Research and these have similar global effects.  There is also Refined Agriculture which gives +10 food / grain and would allow all cities even those with 1 food to grow at maximum rate and reach level 1 anyway (although this is at the end of the research tree and once that is reached doing this might not be the best use of a players time and effort)

 

JJ

Reply #6 Top

 

trained troops do not split or share exp.

 that is good to know, thank you. 

But I disagree with your criticism of cities giving global benefits. I like the current abilities and enjoy working out how each type of city can best contribute to the overall economy I'm building.

i don't have anything against the idea of global effects that cities may bequeath to your realm, but the reason why i put those two examples next to the onyx throne (reduces empire wide unrest by 30%) is that there is no limit to their effectiveness. for the onyx throne you can only reduce unrest until it reaches 0%. further thrones will not spiral some game mechanic out of control.

 

 

Furthermore the research tree allows several techs to be researched multiple times, such as Refined Economics and Refined Research and these have similar global effects.
 

i would probably made a similar criticism, but i usually play on slower research paces, so i did not encounter this too much. however in this case you could simply add increasing tech costs for every repeated research of the same technology. i am basically just asking for diminishing returns on certain things like dodge, empire wide bonuses, accuracy and certain other game mechanics. i am still a bit baffled that there are so many linear (and exponential) scaling factors in this game who can all lead to heavy abuse. the same applies to spells, for example cloak of nature scales with the amount of earth shards, i.e. you can make a unit immune to elemental damage forms with just a basic enchantment (add 100+ dodge and your unit is invincible, with very very few exceptions, like death V or a very high accuracy unit)

 

 

Play on a small map with maximum ai opponents and you won't see the results you're seeing now OP. Small maps are the best challenges.....oh and up the difficulty level also....challenging level is hardly challenging when one is mostly exploiting the ai as much as possible. Let's move up to insane or ridiculous eh?

 

you are right. and i would change my strategies to something different. the issue is, i enjoy long games on big maps and currently the game mechanics do not account for this very well. in my opinion if you introduce big maps the game mechanics should take into account the consequences of having large empires/kingdoms. In fallen enchantress (not LH) for example dirge of caresa (i don't remember the exact name) scaled with death shards. basically that spell one shotted whole armies, especially since it came with another spell that could turn any shard into a death shard. again, simple diminishing returns could have balanced it out.

A simple solution to plate on everything (even mages once you get horses), is to slap a -dodge bonus directly on the item itself. Ex: Plate Armor: 10 Armor, -5 Dodge.

 

i would make it percentage based and not a flat amount. for example if plate armor gave -30 dodge in total, my sovereign would still have 80+ (i.e. more than enough and he still has all defense), yet my basic units would be back to 0, playing with a custom faction with the roselyn (spelling?) faction trait (i.e. 20 dodge on all units).

 

 

Reply #7 Top

It's been well known for many years the AI can't handle large maps of hardly any game. The more area the human player has to expand early the easier the middle and end game become. It's one of the reason I wish the Total War games had random map sizes. The early game of most games is the best time or as I said the smallest maps. A game of Empire Deluxe with all the AI set on expert on a small map and you'll will have the challenge of your life. Even this game is fun on a small map though like the OP I would much rather play a longer game on a huge map. But, one has to give and take for what one wants.

One thing I wish this game has was an average amount of cities per faction played map sizer feature. If I play with 5 or 6 factions and on average want everyone to have from 3 to 5 cities I'd like a slider or an input box to set this up in. That would be neat.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting UncleJJ44, reply 5

 
But I disagree with your criticism of cities giving global benefits. I like the current abilities and enjoy working out how each type of city can best contribute to the overall economy I'm building. Singling out the Town bonusses giving bonus food and 5% HP / town at level 3 is unfair and unbalancing and removes yet another strategy.  We have already had the rush buying strategies nerfed yet again, spoiling  many players enjoyment and one of my favourite ways of playing.  There are many other global bonusses that have similar effects including the conclave at level 4 (10% global research) and the fortress at level 4 (-10% unrest) and these are arguably even more broken.  Furthermore the research tree allows several techs to be researched multiple times, such as Refined Economics and Refined Research and these have similar global effects.  There is also Refined Agriculture which gives +10 food / grain and would allow all cities even those with 1 food to grow at maximum rate and reach level 1 anyway (although this is at the end of the research tree and once that is reached doing this might not be the best use of a players time and effort)

 JJ

 

While I agree that the global benefits is fun late in the game it is a little bit blown out of proportion. I am now 21 hrs into one game (yea, insane I know), easy AI since I thought it's a Beta take it slowly. My income is now at 75 k a season (total almost 1 Million), 1000 metal (87/season), 500 crystals (22!!!/season), 5000 mana (345/season).

I admit I have pushed this. Researched Refined Arcana, Refined Prodution and especially Refined Economics excessively. Still, while some edited units of mine cost 259 crystals a unit, how do you assure your crystal balance is in check? You can't because you cannot boost them like the other resources. On a huge map like Antys? I think that was the name ... it takes you forever to get a substantial output of resources to be competitive. So yea, on one hand it's fun to push it with easy settings but if the AI is on normal or hard, I'd probably lose within 2 or 3 hrs. I'd like to see a better balanced system.

 

[Edit 2: I have one remark, my main character has a base value in hit points of -53. The better he gets, the more this base value drops. Is this intended? ==> Wrong assumption on my side, used the Paragon Spell 10 times and it has a -5 penalty on hit points for the caster and I had an initial penalty of -3, my fault, it's all good]

 

All in all this is a very good Beta, much better than some games considered to be final. Thanks, Stardock, please keep the game as open as you did, looking forward to the polishing ;)

 

Edit: Spelling! ;)

Reply #9 Top

I think the initiative penalty of weapons should be reduced by 2 points and armors should have no initiative penalty, but the encumbrance should have the following penalties:

0 % - 33 %: None

34 % - 66 %: Initiative - 2 and Dodge - 15

67 % - 100 %: Initiative - 4 and Dodge - 30

To reduce the power of Dodge the Lucky trait should give + 15 Accuracy and + 15 Dodge instead of + 25 % Accuracy and + 25 % Dodge. The Acrobat trait should be removed and the Dodge trait should increase Dodge by 10 and 15.