Orkulus needs a nerf

Even the non jump capable Orky is somewhat overpowered because:

 

  • It is very tough up to being invulnerable in the early game. They only thing that does actually counter it is mass bombers.
  • It can be built very quickly.... from a harmless colonly ship that is not even easy to miss but cheap to replace.
  • It weapons upgrade are very quickly built, allowing it to kill anything effortlessly what somebody can field at this stage of the game. They are also very devastating, quite capable of forcing a level 3 or 4 Titan into retreat.
  • Its durability is very high and can quickly be upgraded to withstand anything but late game bomber spam.
  • It is mobile, which make all the above arround 3 times as deadly... because you can never avoid an Orky.
  • It carries phase missiles. Since Phase Missiles are the first thing to research with Vasari even in early stages of the game Advent cannot even hope to deal with it with Titan or capships. The increased damage does the rest, even for TEC. 

 

The developers probably wanted the Orky to be both an early defense weapon - which is ok and a late game offensive weapon - which would still be halfway acceptable, assuming it is really in late game.The problem is, balancing wise it cannot be both.

 

In reality the Orkulus is a excellent early defense weapon, probably the best defense one can wish in early to medium game

 

but even more so it is an nearly unstoppable offensive weapon.

 

1 single colony ship that slips trough..... and you can say goodbye to any of your planets, including but not limited to your capital. There is nothing you can do to stop an Orky until late game has been reached. Early game Orkulus rushing is a very cheap tactic that requires neither skill nor are the costs very high in case of failure.

 

The Orkulus was intended as a defense for the weaker Vasari early game. This is the reason it is at tech 2. Unfortunatly this also means you can Orky rush your enemies very early...... and there is no corvette fleet that can deal with an Orky under construction. Even if you enemy had managed tech 3 or 4.... he still has very little against the building menace at his planet. Ogrows are still far away and far more expensive than an early eco can handle to field them in high enough numbers. Adjucators are terrible in lower numbers and you can field even fewer of them. Not to mention both Ogrows and Adjucators are worthless against the enemy fleet.

 

Vasari fleet + one building Orky = certain loss of planet. Permanently too, until you can field 100 bomber wings or so. If you make a stand before you will loose planet +  fleet + capships + Titan.

 

 

I realize the Orkulus was meant as an Anti Structure cruiser..... but leaving the way to easy rush aside it is not used in this capacity. Instead it used an an offensive support weapon that rivals a high level Titan in terms of firepower and durability without having its flaws. 

 

As an early game rush anti structure starbase it is imbalanced. And in late game Vasari dont use it for that purpose anymore because they have their phase missile bombers.... which also need to be nerfed but that is another topic.

 

So the loss of the functionality would not hinder the Vasari much. So move Assault specification to Tier 8 and leave it there.

 

The Orkulus second intended function was to allow early game Vasari defense. This is mostly fine although even there its mobility imho justifies a longer build time and more important - a far longer upgrade time.

 

I often have the following situation in my games:

 

Vasari fleet is in full retreat, their low level Titan heavily damaged. They run.... my fleet in hot pursuit. Pursuit last for 3 systems and I manage to do a bit more damage to their ships. But in the fourth system he just build a fresh Orky.... and a repair platform any my considerable superior fleet doesnt stand a change anymore.

 

You say this is true for all starbases? Thats right, but

 

  • other starbases are build my a expensive slow constructor and cannot move. This forces your enemy to place it for the future. And so the base constructor has a longer journey ahead of it. The Orkulus however can be build right the moment you jump in.... and will be a deadly threat to the entire gravity well afterwards. 
  • I can avoid other starbases... you cannot avoid an orky. For example I can attack other buildings and leave him the choice to engage and risk his fleet or to let me do some damage... with Orky.... his fleet can sit idly repairing while the Orky makes sure I leave the gravity well soon or stay permanently by dying.
  • Its movement ability allows the Orky to join with its fleet at will anywhere it pleases in the gravity well.
  • You dont manage to get repair bays up close to the enemy fleet... build them farer away and then move your fleet and starbase right there.

 

 

So balancing of the Orkulus should resolve arround those 2 goals:

  • Early game defense but little offensive capability
  • Late game powerful starbase

 

 

To achieve this goal I propose the following changes to it:

 

  1. Build time: You already have the advantage that your constructor doesnt need to be at the target location, so a 30 % increase in build time should not hurt its intended purposes. 
  2. Speed: The Orkulus is to fast. It can cross even large gravity wells in under 1 minute, making any evasive attempts more or less useless - unless you bomber spam. The initial justification for movement was anti structure cruiser replacement. Well. structures dont move.... so half its speed and the Vasari for a change has to put some thought into it.
  3. Weapon Upgrade time when owned gravity well: Unchanged - defensive is ok - with the speed reduction from above.
  4. Weapon Upgrade time when in enemy gravity well: +400 % 
  5. Armor upgrades = the same
  6. Being a mobile starbase the Orky is invulnerable to many abilities designed to counter large ships. So either make more abilities affect it or reduce its speed down by 90 %, so that I can actually use my superior ranged units. 
  7. Reduce the ammount of ressources gained by scuttling it. 
  8. Perhaps its armor while being built should be reduced, too.

 

 

 

 

9,039 views 8 replies
Reply #1 Top

In general I do agree that the Orky rush is a little too powerful....a little....

Early game Orkulus rushing is a very cheap tactic that requires neither skill nor are the costs very high in case of failure.

I recently put this to the test...through a series of several games with medium to skilled players, I tried nothing but abusing the Orky...

In many cases I tried banking solely on the orky, just using it with no support...in other instances I tried coupling it with smaller fleets, but none that were actually ideal for supporting an Orky...against decently skilled people, the Orky strategy failed almost every time...while it is an easy way to abuse unskilled players, against people who know what they are doing you can't just abuse the Orky, you need to use skill with it....

Sometimes this means that you don't colonize one of your nearby planets right away so that you have more resources for fleeting and upgrading the Orky....you may need to lead with a skirantra to heal the Orky, and rushing sentinels to defend it against SC can help....you may have to do diversionary attacks with a decent sized fleet to draw the enemy away from the spot you want to build the Orky...bottom line is that while it is a powerful strategy, it is not an instant I win button and you definitely need skill to do it well...

Now, that being said, I do agree that some toning down of the Orky rush is in order....but I don't think that many changes are necessary to put this thing in balance....the only change really necessary is making the weapon upgrades take the same time as other SB weapon upgrades...this alone would make the Orky problem much easier to deal with early on....

As for mid and late game balance, I think the Vasari are OP for other reasons that are more deserving of change than tweaking the Orky...the Vasari titans are just ridiculous, easily the 2 best in the game....the VL's desperation should not affect corvettes, and the VR titan, well, that's a whole thread in it's own....Phase Missiles, in particular the VR's, are full of problems late game especially against Advent...I think if these things were addressed then the late game Orky tactics wouldn't be as problematic...

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 1


As for mid and late game balance, I think the Vasari are OP for other reasons that are more deserving of change than tweaking the Orky...the Vasari titans are just ridiculous, easily the 2 best in the game....the VL's desperation should not affect corvettes, and the VR titan, well, that's a whole thread in it's own....Phase Missiles, in particular the VR's, are full of problems late game especially against Advent...I think if these things were addressed then the late game Orky tactics wouldn't be as problematic...

 

My thoughts exactly-  Also on the topicof phase missiles Assailants are fine- It's vasari bombers that are kind of unreasonable.  Honestly they really should have 24-30% less base DPS per supply as compared to the other race's bombers just like every other phase missile unit does.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting bilun, reply 2
Honestly they really should have 24-30% less base DPS per supply as compared to the other race's bombers just like every other phase missile unit does.

Concur

Reply #4 Top

It's just plain greasy when an Orky slithers unnoticed into a grav well and starts rapid deployment (or just normal deployment for that matter).  You instantly have to assess if you can respond effectively, or just write off the grav well altogether.  Personally, I think there should be an audible annunciation like a warning klaxon when an enemy Orky starts building.  I mean, come on; are they too far out in orbit that the planetary defenses can't pick them up?  Or do they just induce mass hysteria with the planet defense garrison that they can't push-to-talk and send out an alert message or trip a warning beacon of some kind!?

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 1
...the Vasari titans are just ridiculous, easily the 2 best in the game....the VL's desperation should not affect corvettes, and the VR titan, well, that's a whole thread in it's own....Phase Missiles, in particular the VR's, are full of problems late game especially against Advent...I
Major benefit to Advent late game (+3 level) titan led fleet are a couple of (+3 level) Radiances cycling DA.  This can more than offset a comparable level VL titan if properly positioned/utilized.

 

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Protoplazm, reply 5
I mean, come on; are they too far out in orbit that the planetary defenses can't pick them up? 

Apparently considering you can't build a turret capable of targetting it while it builds on the edge of the gravity well!

 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Protoplazm, reply 5
This can more than offset a comparable level VL titan if properly positioned/utilized.

Maybe VR, but desperation on the VL titan is passive and therefore unstoppable...micro phase jump makes draining the AM before it's too late only more difficult...

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 1
I recently put this to the test...through a series of several games with medium to skilled players, I tried nothing but abusing the Orky...

In many cases I tried banking solely on the orky, just using it with no support...in other instances I tried coupling it with smaller fleets, but none that were actually ideal for supporting an Orky...against decently skilled people, the Orky strategy failed almost every time...while it is an easy way to abuse unskilled players, against people who know what they are doing you can't just abuse the Orky, you need to use skill with it....

 

And what are people doing to - successfuly - defend against it? As far as I know only carriers truely help against that monster but having lots of carriers will kill you in early game because carriers are very weak against the average early game fleet. Not to mention you have to fend it off for fewer costs than the Vasari spent in creating it....

 

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 1
As for mid and late game balance, I think the Vasari are OP for other reasons that are more deserving of change than tweaking the Orky...the Vasari titans are just ridiculous, easily the 2 best in the game....the VL's desperation should not affect corvettes, and the VR titan, well, that's a whole thread in it's own....Phase Missiles, in particular the VR's, are full of problems late game especially against Advent...I think if these things were addressed then the late game Orky tactics wouldn't be as problematic..

 

Entirely agree!

 

Quoting bilun, reply 2

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 1

As for mid and late game balance, I think the Vasari are OP for other reasons that are more deserving of change than tweaking the Orky...the Vasari titans are just ridiculous, easily the 2 best in the game....the VL's desperation should not affect corvettes, and the VR titan, well, that's a whole thread in it's own....Phase Missiles, in particular the VR's, are full of problems late game especially against Advent...I think if these things were addressed then the late game Orky tactics wouldn't be as problematic...

 

My thoughts exactly-  Also on the topicof phase missiles Assailants are fine- It's vasari bombers that are kind of unreasonable.  Honestly they really should have 24-30% less base DPS per supply as compared to the other race's bombers just like every other phase missile unit does.

 

I concur, too.

 

Quoting Protoplazm, reply 5
It's just plain greasy when an Orky slithers unnoticed into a grav well and starts rapid deployment (or just normal deployment for that matter). You instantly have to assess if you can respond effectively, or just write off the grav well altogether. Personally, I think there should be an audible annunciation like a warning klaxon when an enemy Orky starts building. I mean, come on; are they too far out in orbit that the planetary defenses can't pick them up? Or do they just induce mass hysteria with the planet defense garrison that they can't push-to-talk and send out an alert message or trip a warning beacon of some kind!?

This would partially help, however even if you notice it the main problem is still dealing with it.

 

 

Quoting Protoplazm, reply 5
Major benefit to Advent late game (+3 level) titan led fleet are a couple of (+3 level) Radiances cycling DA. This can more than offset a comparable level VL titan if properly positioned/utilized.

 

A wonderful idea..... but please try to catch such a Titan..... it is nearly impossible against an skilled opponent. He chooses when to engage your fleet, not you. Once it is on level 6 the problem becomes more or less unsolvable..... bring just capital ships and corvettes into the fight and they are steamrolled by his fleet... bring in your frigates... and they all die. You cant even hide them close to a starbase.... he will just jump in.... eat them all... and then happily slowly flys back.... it is more than durable enough to withstand even twin fortresses for the duration of the eating process and following retreat.

 

There is also the issue that the Radiance is a subpar capitalship that has no other useful abilities besides DA.

Reply #8 Top

Quoting ARESIV, reply 8
And what are people doing to - successfuly - defend against it? As far as I know only carriers truely help against that monster but having lots of carriers will kill you in early game because carriers are very weak against the average early game fleet. Not to mention you have to fend it off for fewer costs than the Vasari spent in creating it....

Frigate spam...LF spam didn't surprise me to be honest, I've killed even ooloo's SB rushing attempts with LFs...what did surprise me was corvettes, since they suck against structures...TEC corvettes combined with a marza or sova actually do have enough firepower to kill an early offensive Orky, so long as you have about 40 or so and hit it as soon as it starts building...now granted if you actually support the Orky with sentinels the corvettes would have been shredded, but then you are also deploying the Orky later which would have made the rush less effective...

As a whole, players are simply fleeting earlier than they used to and spamming LFs and/or Corvettes as quickly as possible...some skilled players go for LRFs but that's usually when they have more space...it is not uncommon for people to plop a 2nd factory on their HW ASAP and simply crank the frigate spam...

Now this is for early game, and there are times (such as when in suicide) where an Orky rush is pretty much impossible to counter if it was done well...mid-game or late-game, sneaky Orkies are a different matter since you could be looking at several jumps to catch them (kiting carriers are probably your best bet then)...

Like I said earlier, simply increasing the Orky weapon upgrade times to the same as other SBs would make a huge difference...it would still be a very powerful strategy but it would be much harder to pull off...