Can't we all just get along?

from Sins Forums

So I've been romping around the forums and I have noticed some rancour between the SP and MP communities (notably on this post https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/425872) . I'd like to know something. Why did YOU buy Sins? For multiplayer? Singleplayer? Which do you enjoy playing more? For all the singleplayers out there, do you really need to denigrate the MP community just because you didn't like one of their posts? And as for the multiplayers out there, do you need to bully the comp stompers into playing on ICO just because you had to wait for a match? 

Different people like different things. Some people like to comp stomp. Others want to play against flesh and blood. Do you need to bully, insult, or troll the other group to enhance your gaming experience? Yes, maybe the dev's spend too much time on a particular mode. Yes, maybe people can be arrogant and dismissive of other arguments. But just because someone else is a troll doesn't mean that you should be a troll as well. 

 

I just want some civility between the communities. Just because YOU like a particular mode doesn't mean that you should yell at other people until they play that mode as well.

Thoughts?

22,009 views 6 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

I agree :) 

To each their own, yet Single players should respect the fact that multiplayers have a lot of experience playing sins to the maximum, and that the game is very fun to play at this level.  I can't stress this enough!  You don't have to like the people who play well (hell even I don't like me sometimes! lol), but you should enjoy knowing that if you really want to get good at the game, you will get taught a great many things by a group of people who are willing to teach.  We truly want you single players to dip your toes into the water and have the fortitude to lose a few games in a row.  Trust me you get better, and once you know you can hold your own you will join the few, the proud, the ...multiplayer community! lol...

Not only that, everyone can achieve that level of play if they actually try it out.  I'm a casual online player, yet i'm still a potent force in a game.  By casual I mean that I have maybe 1-4 full games a week(not counting minidumps/desyncs and the current beta situation), and i've been known to take months off from playing the game. 

Once you get good in online play, the game starts to play as a chess game and allows you some really awesome strategic decisions, as long as you keep your front lines from folding :).

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

The problem is that the two communities play the game for sometimes completely different reasons and see themselves as competing for DEV time/influence.  While I agree that at the very least disagreements could be handled with more civility this is the internet afterall and I for one am not keeping my hopes up.

Here is something I posted to that thread you linked.  Of course all it received was a TLDR type of reply.....

 

For what it's worth:

 

Quoting the_Monk,

When video games were first made there was often little or no competition (sometimes a new product launch meant an entirely new genre was born), a larger part/focus of the escape of playing video games was the story and the allure of seeing new technology in play and games had a much longer life expectancy.

With the internet as a forum for gamers and first a patching vehicle and now distribution platform for games, we've seen videogaming evolve. This evolution in games and gaming tech brings with it the inevitable evolution of the gamer as well.

Spreadsheets can now be shared around with ease, stats regarding everything required to win a game can be discussed, theories tested, revised and yes perfected in no time at all. What might have taken someone months previously to discover on their own can now be performed by a group of dedicated gamers in a matter of days.

There is no denying it. Once you have played in a multiplayer environment against another thinking human being, playing against AI will forever feel "flat". I remember the feeling clearly of playing my first multiplayer videogames. There was no going back to playing against AI. How could I feel good about beating AI when I knew beforehand what it would do, where and when?

Having said that, there is a problem with human competition online. Some (those who are fearful of playing online in the first place) will never play it again if someone beats up on them too soundly. There are those who (even against humans) prefer a casual "let's just play together" mentality. Then of course there are the hyper-competitive metagame playing gamers who seek out build-orders, weapon stats and dedicated map knowledge. For these gamers the game is often less of a game but more a vehicle to a win over someone else. Someone asked what about those games that take days and days? To this level of gamer something taking days and days to resolve to a win/loss is pointless and just delays what could/should have been decided in 20 minutes. Why keep grinding away at something for days when the result (to those who study the metagame) is inevitable anyway? Of course the filpside to that coin is that while metagaming may be fun for those for whom it really just is about the win; for others the fun is in just playing the game and naturally seeing things to their conclusion.

Therein lies a problem. The metagamers who seek only the win, will be constantly looking for newer faster ways to achieve said win. Everytime something gets hit with the nerf-bat their spreadsheets point out another possible avenue of achieving the same result. This will be seen as a constant attack on the gameplay mechanics by those who are SP-only gamers or those who are casual friendly-MP'ers. By the metagamers this will be seen as gameplay refinement and if there is any truth in my preceeeding statement at all this leads to great divides in gaming communities and eventually spells the decline of same. I know of no solution to this problem.

 

In the last 10 years of gaming I have bumped into many of the same names in the various online MP-enabled games I play. I would consider myself as being a bit of a hybrid between the casual and hardcore MP-only gamer because while I do absolutely consider the metagame in any game I play, I stop short of scouring websites for spreadsheets and build-orders. Unfortunately the problem with most game communities is a human problem and as such requires a human and not a digital solution.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Why is there conflict?  Two fundamental reasons:

  1. Players have difficulty understanding/respecting/sympathizing with motivations outside their own...
  2. SD cannot competently balance the game, especially while adding new content...

The first problem is the core difference between the two groups while the second problem explains why such differences result in conflict...

Let us look at the first fundamental reason....

SP guys are not playing against a challenging opponent...as such, they (the human) can still easily win despite using "poor" strategies or underpowered elements...overpowered elements like phase jumping orkies isn't as problematic in SP since a human player with superior thinking can outplay the AI...additionally, SP guys are playing casually...they don't have as of high expecations for game balance and aren't as likely to throw a hissy fit when things aren't perfect...

MP guys are playing against other humans...while not all MP guys have to win, the point is to try to win...this ultimate goal inherently means one must adopt only the most successful strategies, even at the cost of sacrificing diversity...that the same ship types have to be spammed may not seem fun, but spamming 2 ship types is more fun than building whatever seems "cool" and getting killed in the first 15 minutes...

Quite simply, the SP guys are in it for the immersive experience while the MP guys are in it for the strategic challenge...it is rare that a well-implemented game change will benefit one experience at the cost of the other...however, it is also rare that a game change beyond bug fixing will enhance both experiences...

In general, adding content predominately benefits the SP experience while balancing gameplay enhances the MP experience...

This is where the second fundamental reason comes into play...

Because SD is not particularly good at game balance, it is difficult for the company to both add content and balance gameplay at the same time...as Monk has pointed out, this leads to a questionable assumption that parts of the community must "compete" for SD's attention...not only must your feedback/request be good in its own right, but you are seemingly forced into either being ignored or arguing why the other group should be ignored...

This competition, or illusion thereof, leads to hostility...to make matters worse, not only is the other group one with different interests, but they are interests that are hard to respect or sympathize with if they aren't your own...the SP guy cannot respect the arrogant jerks who do nothing but play on ICO all day while the MP crowd cannot respect the stupid noobs who don't know what they're talking about and contribute nothing but nonsense...the groups simply cannot contend with each other, leading to stereotypes, hostile bashing, and animosity...

To make matters worse, SD actually does listen to the community every once in a while, and no one knows for certain which parts of the community SD listens to the most....as such, MP guys have a vested interest in tearing down and debasing "trivial" or "nonsensical" suggestions lest it be implemented into the actual game...so, even if SD had unlimited time and resources, there's still the need to dismiss bad ideas or suggestions..

Since it doesn't seem like the devs actually play the game competitively themselves, it seems reasonable that they must take much of the communities' feedback on faith...and what happens if the community disagrees?  Each side has an incentive to tear down the other's credibility or position in order to further its own agenda...

 

Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top

So maybe SD should go buy copies of their own game for the Dev's.

Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top

Well, even if the devs played the game frequently, they aren't playing at the level of skilled ICO players....their ability to evaluate it's balance is just as limited as the casual SP guys...

They like making games and playing for pure fun...I have yet to see anything to indicate that anyone on that team plays Sins seriously or competitively...hell, I don't think anyone knows for sure who exactly is in charge of game balance...odds are probably no one...its a small company and so you likely got a lot of multi-role personel (ie the guy making textures is also coding, the guy doing marketing is also reviewing feedback on the forum, etc.) where no one is solely dedicated to game balance...

There's really a lot of uncertainty in that regard...about the most detailed statement about their division of labor was from Brad and went something along the lines of "I couldn't even tell you what is done by SD and what is done by Ironclad"...if CEO King of Micromanaging Brad doesn't know who's doing what, not so hard to understand why the game balance may be in shambles...

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I guess it's a case of "Well, I thought the guy in the cubicle next to me was working on it"