The easiest fix would be to just raise the cost--3 or 4 capital ship crews, 200 fleet supply, etc.  Yeah, you can make a titan if you want to, but something that powerful and difficult to kill should come at a cost.

If they did that, then the titans would have to be heavily nerfed because you can't expect the AI to figure out how to counter them.  A human-controlled titan would probably be pretty invincible versus less than Cruel or Vicious AI.

This does raise an interesting issue for single player and comp stomps.  Will titans just be too danged powerful relative to the AI's ability to kill them?  I would imagine that human players, when confronted with a titan they cannot presently beat, would just avoid combat with it and scuttle structures (preserving money, resources, and ships, and preventing the titan from leveling up).  I did see the AI fleets running away from titans, but they're not going to be able to make the proper decisions as to when to stay and fight and the AI isn't going to scuttle its structures.

I agree with this.  For practical purposes, having it use tactical slots doesn't really force anyone to make any choices about the use of slots because somewhere you probably have a planet where you're not planning to use (many) tactical slots.

So far, the AI seems to consistently run away from titans...the only exception is the massive pirate ship fleets the rebels occasionally get...

For the hell of it, I played on point blank against a vicious AI...all I did was SB my HW (twin SBs), build a Sova, and build a Titan...the Ankylon basically raped anything and everything, and once at high level it pretty much is invincible...damn thing took on 200 pirate ships no sweat...

I let it sit for 2 hours on 8x speed and left to go eat...came back, the damn thing hadn't even lost any hull and was fighting endless hordes of pirate ships...a vicious AI with 4-5 planets and non-stop pirates should do something...

Things I've learned and/or suggest:

• The free pirates ships can actually gimp the AI since they are inferior to normal ships and take up fleet supply
• On large maps (10 players), you get ridiculous stockpiles of militia units that don't go anywhere and just lag the game down...
• Titans need to be vulnerable to all AM countering abilities (detonate AM, disruptive strikes, EMP, magnetize, not ion bolt, phase out hull, or reverie)...TEC need a better anti-ability ability...I'd suggest making magnetize have a permanent duration of 30s or so (the SC-killing component can stop after x many SC are killed, but the ability disablement needs to last) so that there is some sort of counter to the ridiculous non-stop ability spamming of titans...
• Corvettes need better ability (or maybe more than one ability)...something that really hurts the target (like an ability cooldown penalty that stacks, or a weapon cooldown ability that stacks, just something useful)...furthermore, make everything other than flak be absolutely awful against corvettes (very light armor) so they actually live longer than 2 seconds....I see a role for corvettes as anti-cap/titan ships, but they need some work to get there...

Ok i'm going to be a bit of an ass again ^^ !

There is one thing i want for titans :

To be able to counter them with fleet by the time they are built (now this suposes a decent player, not an ai stomper)

Another thing i can say with extreme confidence, i have played a LOT of sins games (something over 2k) on ico, and i KNOW that the loyal titan as it is, will rape an illuminator fleet as well as a kanrak fleet early on. The only thing that would survive early is a sb, and to be honest, thats useless, if the only defence you have is a sb then you have lost. Sbs are not spamable.

Also for people that think TEC>Vasari>Advent>TEC is how the game works ... well no. NO. NO. Certainly not.

Sins is a game is skill. If you lose its because you made the wrong decisions (now there is the exeption of the bug start).

And corvettes need to take more then 1 logistic. Or be more expensive.

In my opinion you guys shouldn't be too bothered with balancing the game as it is yet. You can't balance anything until every race is playable. The duration of your average game is supposed to be smaller so it makes sense every race is stronger compared to Diplomacy.

Furthermore, let's look into their actual use in online pvp. You need to invest a whopping 4 military research station, then buy all four upgrades, make a titan construction yard, gain additional command slots/fleet supply. And then you will still have to pay for the actual titan.

Unless you're in the middle of a 5v5 battle you will probably get demolished by early LRF/carriers. When you are in the middle of the map you could go for fast titan/novalith however I doubt this will be overpowered. Because your teammates will suffer from your absence on the battlefield for the first few minutes. By the time you have your titan out it can already be a 5v4 game.

Then there's the fact your opponents are buffed as well. Let's say you play in a 5v5 game as TEC loyalist, you're in the center of the map and you go for fast novalith cannon(s). On the other team, in the center there's a TEC rebel. He gets 3 civic research stations and expands every which way, gets a solid trade and feeds like there's no tomorrow. I doubt the guy that went for novalith early will win.

My 2 cents.

I am really not a fan of these suggestions to push the titans further down the tech tree. Ideas about increasing fleet/crew usage, increasing tech requirements, level requirements on cap ships or flat out time delays beforehand, etc. Titans are one of the most fun things to happen to the game in ages, I would be terrible to restrict players from using them until even later in the game.

While no one likes nerfs, I would gladly accept the titans being a little weaker at their lower levels if it meant keeping them at their current place in the tech tree and still leaving them as viable semi-early strategies to push for.

[quote who="Darksxx" reply="97" id="3099875"]

15 minutes vs. 30 minutes is at least 2 tech levels, carriers are more likely to be our en mass, as are Heavy Cruisers.

Also, before you start acting like I have no clue what I'm talking about, I lost 3 Ragnarovs in one game, every one due to my own personal failures (jumping into enemy Loyalist space and getting overwhelmed by all his militia buffs for example) My issues with the Ragnarov are few and far between, it's a glass cannon that takes time to develop.

This is not true of the Ankylon, the Ankylon comes out at 15 minutes and unless people have already been expecting this and have their own Titan or have done something incredibly strange and hilarious like build nothing but 5 capitals, 3 of which are Dunovs, or made large investments in an early starbase they're not going to be able to stop it. My gripe with it is that it's supposed to be defensive support, and yet it's still able to cut through fleets like they're nothing.

The Ragnarov requires support to keep it alive, the Ankylon should require support to deal damage. I'm fine with the concept of the TEC Titans, but they should bloody well need an escort fleet, that is my view and my opinion.

That aside, my biggest gripe with the current Titans is that they push the game in a direction where everyone rushes to get their Titan as soon as possible, and they can get it by 15 minutes, turning the game into short slugfests between a few, immensely powerful ships, this is not "giant epic space battles" like Sins has always been about, it feels closer to a MOBA.

And hey, newsflash, it's a beta, people are supposed to voice their concerns, you're the one who needs to get off your high, enlightened horse and realise that's all this thread is.

This thread is mostly about my ego

muahaha

Ok sorry, well lets be nice and say whats epic with this beta :

The loyalist buffs, +30% damage and +2 armor in friendly well ... now thats great, same with the Missile, Autocanon and Laser for rebel.

its great and almost balanced imho

The +1sb might be overkill tho, it gives too much of an eco/military buff, but then again its a lvl 8 that needs a lvl 6 and 7 before available, so its a real late game thingy.

The rebel friending all rebels is too much tho ^^

So, what is general consensus, if there is one? That Ragnarov is okayish - therefore destructable, but Ankylon is OP?

I'm pretty sure the experienced online players will all agree that the Ankylon is OP.

As well as some others ^^

Reading this, i would tend to agree. I have played only one game so far myself, so i cant judge the balance nuances, but in general i think, Titan should be not delayed up until late game.

Perhaps restricting the flak weapons of the titans to only targeting strike craft would help reduce the Ank's OPness? It feels like that's where a lot of the Ank's attack comes from, and it shouldn't hurt the Ragnarov too much since it seems to focus more on it's Big Gun of Awesomeness.

Ankylon has its own anti-fighter batteries? Just take them away completely then, make it suspectible (without support) to bomber swarms...

it as to be more expensive (just make it x3 or x4 imes more expensive). Right now, it cost a fraction of a fully upgraded station if it can just plow through stations at lvl 1 or 2... that or reduce the price of stations or give them two free upgrqades liek the titan so we can try to counter, if the player decides to go titan latter.

Currently the stations are worthless because of the titan.

Now I see titan should be abel to overpower sb or a least help.

No, this is not a good idea at all at all. logistics are hard enough to come by as it is let alone something this large needing to use more logistics too.  Leave it as is.  You all need to stop with the nerfing already. the Titan is good as it is.  I played a 7 hours game with a friend the other night and we both lost out titans twice in that game.  The titan is not OP.  Stop trying to make it out as if it is.  and who cares if someone builds one in the first 30 mins.  so what. each and every player has the same chance of doing the same thing.  there's no limitation on anyone who wants to build on early or later.  its all up to the player. that is the beauty about choice's.  each player makes their choice how you counter it is entirely up to each player.

I think a good concession would be to have Titans appear later in the tech tree, but have stronger base stats to boot....

There is a huge difference between a lvl 10 and lvl 1 SB; it's like comparing an un-upgraded SB to an SB with 20 upgrades...so, if the lower level Titan had slightly raised base stats, and the per level increases were tapered so that high level titans were more or less the same, then I think it could be justified to have them appear later in the tech tree...

The only thing I can actually agree with that Ankylon Titan is OP is the fact that when it is combined with a fleet. the Disable ability does make this ship very hard to kill along with Armistice that the AI will use on you.  This is the only thing that makes this ship OP.

but it is beatable, It just took us about 15 mins to kill it.

It isn't a "choice" when the only way to win is to rush build your titan....and it isn't a "choice" when the only counter to a titan is another titan of comparable level...I see people saying things like "Titans can be killed, I just killed one the other day with like 50 or 100 kodiaks"...yes, because when it takes 500-1000 fleet supply to defeat a low level something that takes 150 fleet supply, clearly we have achieved good balance...

Level 3 Scattershot can pretty much insta-pop LRMs, but other than that the Rebel titan isn't too problematic...if it is supposed to be as strong as the loyalist titan, then it needs some serious buffing....the Ankylon is pretty damn invincible...if you lose one of those to the AI, you really aren't paying attention...the defensive ability plus the ultimate ability, and that thing can take on whole fleets all by its lonesome...

I played only one incomplete game so far, and i do not think there were any enemy fighters/bombers to attack my Titan, therefore  i did not see, whether it can defend against them itself. Clearly that makes me stupid 

And since when, if i say "remove flak from titans", does that mean "let flak attack everything not just fighters?".

Excuse me for disagreeing with you, but isn't that the whole point of this race being a defensive minded race?  Again, you all need to stop trying to nref this ship before we have even seen the other races Titans and what countermeasures they have in place that might over take this ship.  The Advent for one has the ability to bypass shielding. that alone can be pretty devastating to this ship.  So again I will say it, stop trying to nerf this ship until we have seen the entire game.

A good example of a Titan that I can give is a US Carrier, can you imagine someone says that our Carriers carry to many planes so lets nerf it from holding 100 planes to only 50.  Your pretty much making this ship useless.  If your going to design a ship this massive, then you are damn sure going to design it to carry a lot of firepower to go along with it.  You don't spend billions to design it and all the research involved just to make it out to be an over grown wimp.  Sorry, but the nerfing conversations need to stop until we see the entire game.

This seems to be being posted a hilarious amount of times lately.

The Vasari may be better equipped to deal with the Ankylon, hell they'll probably devour the thing, but that's only because what they do best is single target damage.

However, the races in this game should not operate on rock/paper/scissors, they never have, so saying that the other races may be able to deal with the Ankylon while fellow TEC (especially Rebels) have severe problems with it is kind of a moot point.

To raise a more creative solution to making Titans counterable, in my eyes (and I theorycraft), the best way to bring down a Titan of any sort is kill it's antimatter dead. Unfortunately our absolute best weapon against antimatter (light frigates) are completely nonexistent against a Titan.

This leads to the Dunov, Radiance and Kortul, two of which are fairly lackluster otherwise, potentially seeing more play as Anti-Titan Capitals.

What would anyone think of increasing the effectiveness of EMP Charge, Detonate Antimatter and Disruptive Strikes when striking Titans?