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PS3 Hackers being Banned, but where is the line of "Ownership" ?

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PS3 Hackers being Banned, but where is the line of "Ownership" ?

So...you thought you owned you that console you paid for? hahaha

from Elemental Forums

I was checking GameSpot today and I saw an interesting story. Here's the link for those who want to check it out:

PS3 hacker bans begin

( http://www.gamespot.com/news/6299760.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=topstory&tag=topstory%3Btitle )

Now, banning pirates and hackers is a good thing I guess and that isn't what bothers me about all this (especially since I don't own a PS3 lol). What does bother me here though is it's really starting to blur the lines of "ownership". When those people went out and bought their PS3's they bought and paid for the hardware. It's legally theirs. They own it. They can play it and enjoy it. They can take it outside and smash it to bits with a hammer. What-ever, it's theirs, bought and paid for legally. Seeing as how they bought and paid for it though, shouldn't they be able to upload and use their own software if they choose? Granted, most people aren't educated enough to write and run their own firmware or computer code, but, I'm sure a small part of the population of PS3 owners are.

These sweeping banns that are happening are PERMANENTLY BANNING any PS3 console that isn't running "official" firmware and also any PS3 that's running any kind of mods or has any "pirated material" on them like movies or games.

I'm sorry but if I go out and spend lots of money on something, like a gaming console or a computer, I should be able to do what-ever the hell I want with it. If I had the technical knowledge to program my own OS for my PC I should legally be able to do so, right? In my eyes if a PS3 owner wants to take apart his or her system and re-program it they should be able to do so without Sony stepping in and saying anything about it. If I wanted to write my own OS for my computer would Bill Gates tell me I couldn't? Would my PC manufacturer step in and tell me I couldn't? Hell No!!!....and neither should Sony be telling these people they can't write their own PS3 software.

Of course, I'm sure most of the people who did break into their PS3's (also known as "jailbreaking") did so to be able to cheat at online games or to pirate games for free. Surely though there is a small handful of people out there who did it simply for the challenge of doing it, or to run programs they normally wouldn't be able to, which as long as the program its-self isn't illegal, there shouldn't be a problem with.

I can see this getting taken seriously far out of hand in the future with other devices if something isn't done here to defend people's rights. Soon it's going to get to the point where people won't be able to write their own computer software because somewhere out there some company will be thinking they're getting screwed out of money because some private citizen decided to write their own video codec or something to watch movies with. Maybe some enterprising person will write a new program to listen to MP3's with. Maybe someone will write their own program to establish a internet connection with. What-ever they do....does some company have the legal right to tell a person what they can and can't do with something after they legally bought and paid for it?

What do you all think about this and about what it says about the future of "ownership rights"?

107,709 views 35 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top

 

Raven,

My response to your OP title 

"PS3 Hackers being Banned, but where is the line of "Ownership" ?"

The internet irrevocably changed the definition of "ownership" of any number of things (albeit mostly of digital nature).  Is it really surprising that manufacturers of the hardware that comes into contact with said digital media might be expecting us to accept new terms of "ownership" as a result?

Not surprising to me in the least.....

 

the Monk

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

License agreement is only readable after purchasing the device. Now, I may be mistaken here but legally doesn't that mean it's not worth a bean? I'm pretty sure the EULAs of games at least have been challenge by this.

 

Personally I think Sony lost all right to preach about how people use their product when they removed Linux from the PS3. That's not why I personally bought a PS3 but for some it was a big factor and they didn't even offer refunds on withdrawing such a large piece of functionality. Imagine Bill Gates came to your house and demanded you only use Windows on your pc. I'd be so appalled I might not even offer him a cup of tea.

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

It's nice to see some well thought out replies :). More responses coming soon. For now though, I thought it pretty interesting that the guy who hacked the PS3 is getting TONS of Donations to fight Sony in court. Check out this article:

Donations pour in for PS3 hacker; Sony court battle continues

Source: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2011/02/george-hotz-secures-enough-donations-to-fight-sony-rap-battle-begins.ars

The guys name is George Hotz and here's a clip from the article:

This isn't about piracy

"I am an advocate against mass piracy, do not distribute anyone's copyrighted work but my own, do not take crap lying down, and am even pro-DRM in a sense," Hotz said. But, while companies like Apple have the right to lock down their iPhones at the factory, Hotz believes that consumers should be able to do what they like. "Once it's paid for and mine, I have the right to unlock it, smash it, jailbreak it, look at it, and hack on it," he wrote. "Fortunately, the courts agree with me on this point."

Keep up the discussion :)

Reply #29 from Stardock Forums Top

 

So......I'm confused.....  ;P

This guy wants his "ownership" of the hardware he buys from apple/sony/whomever to be absolute, but by the same token then shouldn't SONY have the right to complete "ownership" of Sony-Online and be able to dictate TERMS under which and within which connection to same is allowed?

an old saying "........good for the goose........good for the gander....."  comes to mind............   ;)

 

the Monk

Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top

After the rootkit debacle, Sony can shove its products and services where the sun don't shine. 

Could never trust or respect a company that stooped so low as to covertly install potentially harmful shit on peoples PC's. :thumbsdown:

Got one Sony product in the house [the missus' pre-rootkit PS2]... once that's dead there'll be none.

In fact, the only reason it's still here [not put in the bin yonks ago] is that I cherish certain body parts. :-"

Reply #31 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Can't help but think of this. The guy who owns the game machine has the right to do whatever he wants with it, right?  So, quoting Monk, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander", should it not be true for the guy who owns the service the other guy uses? Just saying. Not taking sides but credit where credit is due.

Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top

I'm sorry but if I go out and spend lots of money on something, like a gaming console or a computer, I should be able to do what-ever the hell I want with it. If I had the technical knowledge to program my own OS for my PC I should legally be able to do so, right? In my eyes if a PS3 owner wants to take apart his or her system and re-program it they should be able to do so without Sony stepping in and saying anything about it. If I wanted to write my own OS for my computer would Bill Gates tell me I couldn't? Would my PC manufacturer step in and tell me I couldn't? Hell No!!!....and neither should Sony be telling these people they can't write their own PS3 software.

Of course, I'm sure most of the people who did break into their PS3's (also known as "jailbreaking") did so to be able to cheat at online games or to pirate games for free. Surely though there is a small handful of people out there who did it simply for the challenge of doing it, or to run programs they normally wouldn't be able to, which as long as the program its-self isn't illegal, there shouldn't be a problem with.


Sorry, it´s a gaming platform of course you can change your OS there is nothing bad about it but its stated in the terms of usage that the waranty will wash away as soon as you modify open your box and since its a complete system this will affect also TERMS of the online usage aswell.
And to be honest everyone who jailbreaked his box is a pirate.I could understand to do that if there would be an improvement to certain software but since its a GAMING PLATFORM and you can basically only play games,watch movies, listen to music with that thing ok and chat,i dont see any benifit of doing that unless you want to play pirated games.If Sony does a online check for the version of the OS currently running on your box and just blocks you out and does not permenately BANN you from going online again. i would say the move Sony did is just right. ( IF your able to go back on the normal Firmware and then go online again. )
Im not trying to say you shouldnt be able to get a diffrent operating system, no im trying to make you understand that you can smash your box you can hmmer it burn it whatever but as soon as you modify the software that is © things turn in the opposite direction and he should be aware of that.
Its not yours and never will be its just a by product delivered with the tool.




Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting the_Monk, reply 29

So......I'm confused..... 

This guy wants his "ownership" of the hardware he buys from apple/sony/whomever to be absolute, but by the same token then shouldn't SONY have the right to complete "ownership" of Sony-Online and be able to dictate TERMS under which and within which connection to same is allowed?

an old saying "........good for the goose........good for the gander....."  comes to mind............  

the Monk

I can agree with that more or less. Granted, I don't know all the details of the Mr. Hotz's case or what happened with him jailbreaking his system, I am reasonably sure he knew before hand that his actions would end up stopping him from using Sony's online service. As long as someone who owns any kind of gaming system wants to stay "off-line" with it, I don't honestly think there should be an issue with what that person wants to do with that system, particularly where writing your own software is concerned.

I have a friend of mine named Mikey who owns two Wii's. One he has for playing online games in multi-player. The other one he has running "Homebrew" so that he can run software on it that's not technically allowed to be used according to Nintendo's EULA. I don't know the details of what all software it exactly allows him to run, but he's told me he can now run some of his phone apps and Apple software on his Homebrew system. He's pretty smart and is more than capable of coding his own apps as well. He has a full time in the tech industry and on the side he runs a part-time business designing web-sites for people.

Quoting Roloccolor, reply 32

Sorry, it´s a gaming platform of course you can change your OS there is nothing bad about it but its stated in the terms of usage that the waranty will wash away as soon as you modify open your box and since its a complete system this will affect also TERMS of the online usage aswell.
And to be honest everyone who jailbreaked his box is a pirate.I could understand to do that if there would be an improvement to certain software but since its a GAMING PLATFORM and you can basically only play games,watch movies, listen to music with that thing ok and chat,i dont see any benifit of doing that unless you want to play pirated games.If Sony does a online check for the version of the OS currently running on your box and just blocks you out and does not permenately BANN you from going online again. i would say the move Sony did is just right. ( IF your able to go back on the normal Firmware and then go online again. )
Im not trying to say you shouldnt be able to get a diffrent operating system, no im trying to make you understand that you can smash your box you can hmmer it burn it whatever but as soon as you modify the software that is © things turn in the opposite direction and he should be aware of that.
Its not yours and never will be its just a by product delivered with the tool.

I can agree with your whole reply except for one line.

"And to be honest everyone who jailbreaked his box is a pirate."

That I don't agree with. Just because he jailbroke his system that does Not make him a "pirate". If you check out the article I linked to in reply #28 Donations pour in for PS3 hacker; Sony court battle continues , he clearly states (with full backing of his legal counsel no less) that "This Isn't About Piracy". His exact words which I quoted above are:

"I am an advocate against mass piracy, do not distribute anyone's copyrighted work but my own, do not take crap lying down, and am even pro-DRM in a sense," Hotz said. But, while companies like Apple have the right to lock down their iPhones at the factory, Hotz believes that consumers should be able to do what they like. "Once it's paid for and mine, I have the right to unlock it, smash it, jailbreak it, look at it, and hack on it," he wrote. "Fortunately, the courts agree with me on this point."

Now, to expand on jailbreaking not being piracy in and of its-self, many people jailbreak systems (phones mostly) so they can run perfectly legal and paid for software (or even free-ware) that simply isn't allowed by the phone's OS to be ran on it. Just "jailbreaking" something doesn't make a person a pirate. Downloading software, games or movies that should be paid for, for free, is what makes a person a "pirate". There are plenty of apps out there, like Weather Apps, GPS Apps, MP3 playing Apps, and all kinds of things out there that can't be used on some phones simply because the phone makers don't make any money off the sales of some of these apps because the apps themselves are free-ware, and that is why the phone company blocks these apps from running on their phones. The most notable one that comes to mind that I've heard of people "jailbreaking" is the iPhone.

I agree the PS3 is a Gaming Platform, but, by jailbreaking it and using your own OS there's no reason why Non-Game related Apps couldn't be ran on it, which would make it much more than purely a gaming platform.

The main reason I believe that Sony is going after Mr. Hotz is because his work does enable those people who Are Pirates to be able to create software that will allow the PS3 to be emulated on PCs or so that a modified PS3 can run pirated games. It also allows people who want to use third-party game cheating software like "Aim Bots" to cheat at online multi-player games. Those people who do that Are Pirates and Cheaters. Just jailbreaking a system how-ever does Not make a person a "Pirate" unless they actively use it to run something that they should have otherwise paid for.

Reply #34 from WinCustomize Forums Top

hehe well its just my opinion above- therefore you don’t have to agree with me...but iam a pc guy had one console in my life and that was a ps2.
And then one Sega ( the Gameboy version just in color and with light - Tv and radio ) that thing was pretty amazing !
But mostly i use a PC. So for me it doesn’t make real sense to jailbreak your console as average guy, most of them know that applying a different firmware will allow them to play games without --- you know what i know and i hope you get my point. Most of them dont even know how to do that and give away their box and pay someone to jailbreak it. And in this case iam speaking of pirates bc you can’t tell me those guys want to emulate freeware or any other kind of software on their station... it’s all about games games games ... did i say illegally ohh forgot that... and that’s exactly what gets lost on the track people don’t even realize that it is illegal.
For the more advanced guys out there this isn’t even a hack it’s a modification and for those guys -knowing what they r doing ( the one´s that mod it themselfs )
i could say ok they just want to see how far they can go and what’s achievable and what not.

Ok to the part where you say emulate PS3 on pc...
It was already tested and it worked couple years ago the only bad thing is that you have to have an exact replica of the hardware to run it without bugging. And with the thought that you have to downgrade from modern PC hardware back to stoneage stoneware. I would say thanks but no thanks.
 

And the whole idea of sewing Mr. XXXX is plain stupid , take a look at some hackers out there that have had the same walkthrough, most of them end up pretty well in some named software-company.
So doing that will mostly do the exact opposite.
 
 

Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting FutileEmotion, reply 2
If banning actually prohibited them from using their hardware, that would be one thing.  But in this case, it is only cutting them off from services Sony provides.  If you don't plan on obeying their license agreement, you should be prepared to work without their help.

When Sony no longer feels like living by the terms of their license agreement they simply change it and inform you that if you wish to continue using your hardware you must comply. I can't believe people still hide behind licensing agreements as if it gives Sony carte blanche authority to do whatever they want.