[eMOD] Railgun's balance 'mod' for 1.1, v.09a

For the record, I didn't think of your mod as an actual mod, just an exercise to evaluate weapon/armor balance.  I appreciate your hard work in trying to evaluate the problem, even if  you were apparently 'advertising a mod in the general forum'.  Seems pretty silly to me...

Square/squareroot, with a 50 minimum 'roll' really skews things pretty harshly in favor of the higher value.  But, if some people want cheese with their Elemental, that's their choice I guess.  I'm sure the Stardock guys are on this though.  If not, it should still be possible mod the .xml later, for those of us that like a more balanced approach in our combat results...

Assuming they are not changing equipment much before 1.1 is released (it doesn't look like it yet), then a mod like this that keeps vanilla flavor, but tries to fix the balance is very much needed. Maybe this is only an experiment, but maybe it is a good start. I will have to try it out, just as soon as they stop pushing new betas every day for me to play with.

I'm on it, as is Werewindlefr.

I was waiting unitil I played 1.09s before I 'implemented' the balance factor I have in mind.  I saw one problem come to a head last night.  I had some 6att/8def Golems fighting some 8att/6def spiders.  A LOT of blocked and 1 point damage results resulted, so it took a few turns, and some maneuvering/ganging up, to beat the spiders into a pulp.

Part of the problem is that, with the low early game values, and if all things are relatively equal, the damage spread isn't enough to allow anything other than 'chipping away' at the opponent.  This gets turned on it's head later when the 'uber' weapons and such show up later. If you have say a 2 to 1 advantage in attack strength, and a 60 attack, 30 damage is no big deal, so combat becomes less challenging. And if you only have a 6 defense, you die a quick and horrible death.  In wargaming, this is (un)affectionately known as cheese.

This is what I've been pointing out all along.  That the best attack in the game shouldn't be more than 3x the 'run of the mill' armor.  Anything more than that should involve a huge strength stat, etc.

I'm waiting for the values/patches to settle down (we've had, what, 3 patches this week so far?), then I'll look at the appropriate .xml files and implement my vision as to what what I think would be more enjoyable and challenging, for you guys to try out and comment on.  My idea affects EVERY attack and defense value in the game (monsters, units, heroes/sov's), so I need the latest .xml data available for the mod.  I'll be playing with this over the weekend regardless, and once I achieve a working mod, I'll post what I have, if Werewindlefr doesn't beat me to it.  We've been discussing this (via pm), so I think of it as a collaborative effort, not my idea.

AND, as this will simply be a mod, those who like the status quo won't have to use it.  For those of us who want a different experience, well that's what mods are for!

BTW, if you haven't tried the Updated Weapons mod (by kenata), I highly recommend it.  He has a lot of cool ideas, and they seem rather balanced to me.  He is always looking for more feedback so he can tweak his mod to make it better, so feel free to try it and let him know what you think!  My goal is to make a balance mod that is compatable with his (with his permission of course).

I think huge progress has been made for now, with a large reduction in late game armor values (which were way overpowered). This, in turn, will allow for a reduction in late game weapon values, which reach ridiculous levels (sword of wrath, great scimitar, I'm looking at you).

Right now, I'm mostly busy with balancing the magic. There's a lot to be done in that area...

OK, I've been testing out a balancing factor (under 1.09t), and adjusted the monster stats accordingly.  Unfortunately, I'll need to redo this under 1.09u...

Plus, I've missed a few early game monsters somewhere, so I have to figure out where their stats are.

So far, I'm liking the combat a little better, but it's too early to tell.  Since Werewindlefr is looking at magic, I'll continue to look at armor/weapon/monster values.

A 'global' stat modifier would be nice, as then I wouldn't have to change all the files.  I haven't seen one, though, so multiple .xml mods is the only path open to me at the moment.

Global stat modifiers in CoreUnitStats.xml

OK, so I've been looking at the current (1.09u) weapon and armor stats...

Cut & Paste here... (tab alignment is messed up of course, but I'm not fixing it).

Weapon    ATT    Modifier    G/M/I/C    Shop    Turns    Type    Notes

Gnarled Club    3    -    2/3/-/-        0    Blunt
Ythril Axe    4    -.25Spd    20/-/20/-    -    ?
Axe        7    -    4/2/2/-        1    Blunt
TwilightAxe    10    -      ?    -    -    BluntTwo, Cutting
Mace        11    -    10/4/2/-        1    Blunt
WarHammer    16    -    14/6/4/-        2    Blunt

TrollClub    10    -    7/-/-/-      6    -    1H

TrollBtlHammer    16    -    30/12/4/-     =    2H

BattleAxe    23    -    18/8/4/-        2    Blunt2H
BattleHammer    30    -    30/12/4        4    Blunt2H
LordHammer    40    -    40/14/6      600    5    Blunt2H

Pariden Staff    4    -    10/15/-/-    -    Spear
Ceresa Staff    4    -    10/-/15/-    -    Spear
Magnar Staff    5    -    5/5/-/-        -    Spear
Staff        5    -    3/4/-/-        1    Spear
OakSpear    9    -    6/4/-/-        1    Spear
BoarSpear    9    -    6/4/-/-        2    Spear
Warstaff    15    -    12/8/-/-        2    Spear

Tarth Dagger    3    +.25Spd 15/-/15/-   30    -    1H
Traitor Sword    3    +.25Spd   ?        -    ?    Kraxis
Verga's Blade    4    +.5Spd 20/-/4/-        -    1H
Areielle Sword    4    +.25Spd 20/-/20/-    -    1H
Seerna Sword    4    -.25Spd    20/-/20/-    -    1H
(Fang) Dagger    5    +1S/A/D 4/2/2/-        1    1H
ShortSword    6    +1Spd    10/-/4/-        2    1H
Imp.ShortSword 12    +1S+2D 22/4/2/-    3    1H
BroadSword    15    +1A+2D 18/6/4/-    3    1H
Scythe        15    +1S+2D 18/6/4/-    3    1H
Scimitar    16    +1S+2D 30/8/6/-    4    1H
Demon Sword    18    +.25Spd 7/2/2/-    80    -    1H    Cutting -  Appears Twice
Paladin Brand    20    +.25Spd  ?    110    -    1H    Cutting
Titan's Blade    20    +.25Spd   ?    5000    -    1H
Karrazan    22    +1A/D    50/-/6/-        8    1H
Elem.Karrazan    28    +1A/S/D 60/-/10/10    10    1H

Longsword    23    +1Spd    30/10/8/-    4    2H
TrogScimitar    28    +2Spd    25/6/8/-        4    2H
Claymore    40    +6ACC    55/12/10/-    8    2H
GreatScimitar    50    +3A/D    60/12/12/- 750    10    2H

Crude Bow    4    -2Acc    8/4/-/-        2    Bow    Range 6
CedarShortbow    12        22/10/-/-    3    Bow    Range 8
CedarLongbow    15        35/16/-/-    6    Bow    Range10
Ythril Bow    18    +2S+10A  ?    1000    -    Bow    Range 8

Catapult    Special                        Range10


Area    Armor        DEF    Dodge    G/M/I/C    Elem     Weight    Notes

Torso    Padded Cuirass    2    -    4/2/-/-        25
    Leather Cuirass 3    -    4/6/-/-        25
    Light Plate    4    -1    6/6/2/-        25
    Heavy Plate    5    -2    10/8/4/-        25
    Master Lt Plate    6    -1    12/8/5/-        25
    MasterHvyPlate    8    -3    16/9/8/-        25
    FallenHvyPlate    8    -3    16/9/7/-        25
    Rusty Plate    15    -.25Spd    150/-/15/-    ?
    Legend Plate    18    -    30/-/9/16   2    25


Head    Cloth Helmet    1    -    3/1/-/-        8
    Trog Cloth Helm    1    -    3/2/-/-        8
    LeatherHelmet    2    -    3/4/-/-        8
    LightPlateHelm    3    -1    4/4/1/-        8
    Rusty Plate    26    -.5Spd    275/5/35/-    ?
    HeavyPlateHelm    4    -2    8/5/2/-        8
    Master Lt Plate    5    -1    10/5/3/-        8
    MasterHvyPlate    6    -3    12/6/5/-        8
    Legend Plate    8    -    14/-/6/10   1    8
    Fallen LegendP    8    -    14/-/3/8     1    8

ForearmCloth Armlets    1    -    3/1/-/-        8
    LeatherArmlets    2    -    4/2/-/-        8
    FallenLeather    2    -    3/4/-/-        8
    Light Plate    3    -1    4/4/1/-        8
    Heavy Plate    4    -2    8/5/2/-        8
    Rusty Plate    4    -.1    40/-/6/-        ?
    Master Lt Plate    5    -1    10/5/3/-        8
    MasterHvyPlate    6    -3    12/6/5/-        8
    Legend Plate    8    -    12/-/6/10   1    5

Boots    Cloth Greaves    1    -    3/1/-/-        5
    LeatherGreaves    2    -    3/4/-/-        5    
    LightPlate    4    -1    6/6/2/-        5
    HeavyPlate    5    -2    10/8/4        5
    Master Lt Plate    6    -1    12/8/5/-        5
    MasterHvyPlate    8    -3    16/9/8/-     5
    FallenHvyPlate    8    -3    16/9/7/-        5
    Legend Plate    8    -    12/-/6/10   1    5
    Fallen LegendP    8    -    18/-/6/10   1    5


Full    Patch Leather    5    -    -        ?
    Rawhide    8    -    -        ?
    Medium        9    -    -        ?
    Pressed Iron    13    -    -        ?
    ResplendentPl    16    -.4Spd    -        ?    +4 Charisma
    ObsidianPlate    20    -.05Spd    -        ?
    Blood Iron    22    -.4Spd    -        ?
    Rusty Plate    26    -.5Spd    275/5/35/-    ?

*    Padded Leather    4/5    -/1            46    wo/with Kite Shield
*    Leather        9/11    -/2            46    wo/with Heavy Wood Shield
*    Light Plate    14/17    -4/-            46    wo/with Light Steel Shield
*    Heavy Plate    18/22    -8/-            46    wo/with Heavy Steel Shield
*    Master Lt Plate    22/27    -4/+6            46    wo/with Master Lt Steel Shield
*    Master HvPlate    28/34    -12/0            46    wo/with Master Hvy Steel Shield
*    Legend Plate    42/49    -/+18            43    wo/with Legend Shield

Shield    Kite Shield    1    1    5/2/-/-        2
    Heavy Wood    2    2    5/2/1/-        2
    Light Steel    3    4    5/2/2/-        2
    Heavy Steel    4    8    5/3/4/-        2
    MasterLtSteel    5    10    8/4/6/-        2
    MasterHvySteel    6    12    12/5/8/-        2
    LegendSteel    7    18    20/-/4/10   1    2

I have my own ideas on where these values should be (49 Def with a +18 to Dodge looks cheesy to me, as does the 40 for LordHammers/50 for Great Scimitar).  It'll take me a bit to recode the values, of course.  A database file for these values would have been nice, but it is what it is so it's scrollin' time!

I'll experiment with it this afternoon.  Unless it covers Monsters as well, though, it won't do what I need it to do.  The 'default value' would have to bump ALL attack stats and defense stats by the value I'd input, and I'm guessing default only sets the minimum if another value is not specified...

Plus, as I'm tweaking the higher values anyways, it wouldn't help in this case.

It's far from being the only problem. Look at 1-handed weapon values. Look at the broadsword, for instance... Can you tell me what it could be useful for ? Or the mace ? 

Here's my take on the values, for regular weapons at least:

1-handed

Gnarled Club    3      
Axe       8   
Mace        12  
WarHammer    18     

BattleAxe    21    -    22/8/5/-        2    Blunt2H
BattleHammer    28    -    30/14/4        4    Blunt2H
LordHammer    35    -    50/20/6      600    5    Blunt2H

Staff        5    -    3/4/-/-        1    Spear
OakSpear    9    -    6/4/-/-        1    Spear
BoarSpear    9    -    6/4/-/-        2    Spear
Warstaff    15    -    12/8/-/-        2    Spear


(Fang) Dagger    7    +1S/A/D 4/2/2/-        1    1H
ShortSword    8    +1Spd    10/-/4/-        2    1H
Imp.ShortSword 13    +1S+2D 22/4/2/-    3    1H
BroadSword    17   +1A+2D 18/6/4/-    3    1H
Scythe        17    +1S+2D 18/6/4/-    3    1H
Scimitar    22    +1S+2D 30/8/6/-    4    1H                  <<< I mean, seriously, the same tech has this one and the Trog Scimitar, a weapon with 28 attack and 2 speed ? 
Karrazan    25    +1A/D    55/-/11/-        8    1H
Elem.Karrazan    28    +1A/S/D 70/-/12/10    10    1H

Longsword    23    +1Spd    35/10/10/-    4    2H
TrogScimitar    28    +1Spd    50/6/12/-        4    2H
Claymore    32    +6ACC +3D    55/12/10/-    8    2H
GreatScimitar    40    +3A/D    60/12/12/- 750    10    2H

Crude Bow    6    -2Acc    8/4/-/-        2    Bow    Range 6
CedarShortbow    14        22/10/-/-    3    Bow    Range 8
CedarLongbow    18        35/16/-/-    6    Bow    Range10

Now, the best regular weapons cost more money and are less powerful, making them less-obviously-stronger choices. Now a broadsword can hurt even a guy in heavy armor, and can try to hurt master light plate if lucky. And a mace (and then warhammer) can stay a good basic infantry weapon for a while. Do I build 3 dudes with a broadsword and light plate,  or 1 with a claymore  and a light master plate ? Not so obvious a choice. The guy with the claymore won't perform so well against 3 Battle axe/longsword wielders, while the broadsword guys will manage.

Yeah, there are a few anomolies in the stats.  You can really see the dysfunctionality that Frogboy mentioned r.e. the design process in these stats.

Also, there are some 'odd' armors that are 'orphaned' currently.  For example, Presssed Iron armor and Rawhide armor.  These could be used by specific races to add flavor.  Iron - Ironeers, Rawhide - Tarth for example.

Doing a quick check of the tech tree, when the armors become available seems proper (i.e. leather 1 jump, Master Plate 4 jumps, etc.).  The only thing I'd change would be Legendary Plate, which should have an additional prerequisite (i.e. learn Master Plate first, as well as the appropriate magic techs).

Haven't really researched the weapons trees yet, but I'm sure I have some ideas on changes in that realm.

What I currently have in mind is a more 'holistic' approach to the weapon/armor stats, i.e. when you learn a tech, the weapons available at that tech give you some tradeoffs to think about.  Do I go for the spear, and no shield?  A 1 handed axe/hammer for more damage (with shield), or a sword for more weapon speed (with shield), or a 2 handed sword?  Each choice should be 'balanced' versus the others, not just 'randomly' appear.

Even daggers should have some utility to them, as compared to say a Short Sword.  And Daggers should be balanced versus each other.  Values between 3 and 5 should have some reasoning behind them.  Otherwise the Tarth Dagger and Traitor Sword are just silly.

Oh, and I plan to differentiate Oak Spear and Boar Spear, both stat-wise and tech-wise.  No point having two weapons that do the exact same thing, albiet with different materials costs.

Monsters will be similarly approached, but that's down the road a bit.  Since monster spawning is tied to tech, comparing Adventure tech level 4 versus weapon/armor tech 4 to determine what should be appropriate stat wise shouldn't be that big of a deal.

So, the idea I have in mind will be a little more involved than simply redoing the stats... plus we have ANOTHER patch coming out today supposedly, so I want to get the latest versions of the .xml before I go crazy!

AGAIN, at this point, this is a mod idea.  Some will like it, others won't.  I just like more choices and decisions in unit design, and think that no choices should be 'obvious' (e.g. Lord Hammer/Great Scimitar).  Plus, I want this to be compatible with a certain other weapons mod I really like!

You need to make sure that late-game. a mace or a short sword will still be somewhat used. And there's only one way to do that: you need to shrink the range between low-end and hgh-end armor and weapons.

Exactly.  And also why I don't think everyone will be happy with those changes.  Some people like cheese with their Elemental...

Yeah, emmental is pretty cheesy.

Anyway, as you can see, my personnal mod (the values I've given, that are on my disk, not what's linked on the OP) kind of does that.

My solution to beta imbalance is to let the AI set the tone for equipment and logistics. This way I don't get a whole bunch of overpowered units while the AI is just using leather and sticks. Makes testing the battles alot more fun since victory isn't assumed. I have noticed the AI at very far distances from the player doing much better in fielding an army.

When we are in 1.1 and 1.1 I will check out changing the values, but I think it would nice to keep other modders and mods in mind when creating your own. Make your xml files seperate for each category i.e. weapons, armor, spells, stats. This way we can pick and choose through your changes and adjust them to fit with other mods. Very annoying when I have to alter mods for hours to get them to work with my own.

Not that any of you are guilty of this, I am just hoping new modders will take note.

Just a quick update.

I tried applying my 'balance factor' versus core unit stats.xml.  As suspected, the other, race and unit specific files are overriding the values.  I'm seeing a few units with the adjusted values, but a lot of others with only one or neither of them.

I tried experimenting with calling out the race specific values in a separate file via the mod folder, but that didn't go well either.  Unit portraits/models disappeared, and there were other glitches.

So it looks like I'll need to rework around a dozen or so files to apply this.  I also have another workaround (an item), but the problem with that is getting the AI players to always use said item.  Plus monsters don't do items, so they have to be adjusted individually.

I'd still like to do a <calculate stat> modifier outside of the spell environment, but so far no one has come up with a way to do that.  So modifications have to be on the front end, not the back end.

I could just apply modifiers to the weapons and armor, but I'm trying to adjust Str and Def across the board, not on a case by case basis.  The CoreDefs.xml file would seem to be a good place to do that, but those stats aren't called out there.

I'm also thinking about where weapon adjustments should go.  Here's a thought problem for you.

Say at the start of the game you have the following choices:

Basic Sword plus Shield

Basic Dagger plus Shield

Axe or Club plus Shield

Spear

Basic 2H Sword

Staff

How should these combinations balance out against each other?  My thoughts at the moment (still puzzling this out)

Axe/Club/Hammer + Shield: 6 Att, 1 Def, +1 Dodge

Sword+ Shield: 5 Att, +1 Spd/Acc, +1 Dodge

Dagger + Shield: 4 Att, +1 Spd, +2 Acc, +2 Dodge (more nimble)

Spear: 8 Att

Basic 2H Sword: 7 Att, +1 Spd/Acc

Staff: 6 Att, + 2 to Dodge (parry). +2 to Acc?

Assume the 'typical' defense versus these is a padded leather suit (5 Def), with another +1 for the shield.

Staff is the one I'm agonizing about at the moment.  I REALLY like the +1 Move modifier that Kenata uses in his mod, but this might be too powerful outside of combat, hence the bonus to dodge instead in this thought exercise.

Also, there is the matter of the 'basic' club.  In game, it has a 3 attack currently.  Perhaps it should have a 3 attack AND a Smash ability (+3 Attack, 2 actions) to make it competitive?  It's the 'cheap' option for peasants, but we don't want peasant militiamen to be too weak, after all...

Do these values look balanced against each other?  Thoughts?

Note that I've seen two specific 'calls' for damage type in the weapons files:

Blunt and Cutting

And of course the weapons types (One Handed, Two Handed, Spear, Blunt and Blunt Two).  Axes are usually referred to as Blunt, although I think they'd merit a separate category.

I have no idea what Cutting effectively means in game terms, but Stardock has been thinking about damage types at least.

In GalCivII, there is a 'Trifecta' of damage types: Beam, Kinetic, and Missile.  Having a similar Trifecta here (Cutting, Blunt, Piercing) might be kind of cool... with different armor types having varying effectiveness versus these three types.  Thats an idea for an expansion, though...

Also, if you want to try out my "Mitigation factor", which is intended to help with the attack/defense situation, I've been adding 5 to ALL attack values across the board, and 3.3333 (rounds to 4) to ALL defense values. As a stopgap until I rework the various .xml files, I have a ring I've created that adds these values, which I purchase in the shop for 1 GP (it's supposed to be a global modifier, not a boost to specific units).  I've upped monster values accordingly.

Note this means Pioneers have a 5 Attack and a 4 Defense, and the typical armored spearman currently has a 14 attack and a 9 defense.   14 versus 9 plays out better in combat than 9 versus 5 in my book, as it provides a better spread on damage, and also a better ability to block said damage.  An Axe + Shield works out to 11 att, 10 Def.  Note that since Attack is 1 higher than defense, this helps reduce the 'blocked' results I was seeing a lot of in the 6 Att/ 6 Def situation.

Combat seems more satisfying now, doesn't take quite as long when things are relatively even, and is slightly more perilous due to the potential for more damage.  Also, this 'bump' doesn't completely wipe out hit points in one blow usually, so the current HP values are working well.

Yay!  I've solved my 'baseline' issue!!!

Per an experiment I did in another thread: https://forums.elementalgame.com/400921

I figured out why 'baselining' the Attack at 5 and Def at 3.3333 was kicking my tail.  While it still involves changing a LOT of files (CoreUnits.xml, CoreAmarianBaseUnits.xml, etc) and removing some 'redundant' code, I've FINALLY been able to modify Attack and Defense across the board for the various kingdom & empire units using JUST the CoreUnitStats.xml file.  This will make things WAAAY easier as I try different baseline values in the future!

Of course, monsters, NPC's, and other unique units will still need to be modified individually, but at least now I can assault that enemy capital multiple times without having to change a buttload of files each time!

OK, I've been able to clean up some .xml files for the various races, npc's, and such.  Now I can directly modify the base Attack and Defense value of most of the units in Elemental (excluding monsters and a few others), using CoreUnitStats.xml.  I can also modify the base Constitution stat of the core units, including Pioneers and Peasants, utilizing a mod I just made...

Details in this thread:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/402229

I still haven't been able to figure out how to implement my other idea (Con/3 added to Def), but one thing at a time...

Hopefully this saves you some time, Werewindlefr!

Release of the first real version of my balance mod ! (v.09a) : https://www.wincustomize.com/explore/elemental_war_of_magic/16/

It removes armor parts from the games. Armor of each tech level come in two flavors: half and full (special armors from quests and Legendary Armor are all "full" armors). The values are now:

Armor Defense Dodge Penalty Price (Gold/Mats/Metal) Half - Full

 Cloth 2-3 0 6/2/0 8/3/0  

 Leather 4-5 0 12/4/0 16/6/0

 Light 6-7 3 20/5/2 25/8/3

 Plate 8-10 6 35/4/5 45/6/7

  Master Light 9-10 2 60/15/3 75/25/4

 Master Plate 11-13 8 70/8/10 90/12/15

Legendary 15 6 100/10/8, 20 crystal, 1 elementium  

Shields            Dodge Bonus

Wood 1 2 4/1/0

Heavy Wood 2 3 8/3/0

Light Steel 3 4 14/5/1

Heavy Steel 4 5 22/4/3

Light Master 5 10 50/10/2

Heavy Master 6 8 40/5/7

Legendary 7 12 75/10/6, 15 crystal, 1 elementium

Weapon values have been rescaled, going from 5 (club) to 30 (Sword of Wrath). A few examples: the Lordhammer is now at 26, the broadsword at 15, the short sword at 10.

In general, all high-end items are truly expensive, meant for elite units. Quantity should matter as much as quality, now.

Please give feedback !