He said that not only haven't we, but we would never, even though we have deployed troops to Israel who were willing to fight if need be.

What war has Israel won on it's own?  Which of your wars were you not heavily financed and armed by other countries?  Yes, you may have fought on your own.. and fought very well, I might add... but to say Israel won on it's own is a bold faced lie.

...

 

Yet Isreal is and never has been on its own.  The very existence of the nation proves that.

When did he say that you would never???

Didn't you say you deployed _600_ troops? Did they ever fight?

I am sure they are willing to fight and will fight. But it's still true that Israel hasn't asked them do fight at the front where they risk death. Israelis have always fought for themselves (apart from that episode in Lebanon with the Christian militia).




Both the War of Independence and the Six-Day-War were fought and won by Israel alone.

Sure, there was financial support and weapons were bought. But the other side had such support as well (and more of it).

But the main financial support for Israel in the 1940s came not from the US or any other country's government but from Jews, from "Israel".

I don't know what you consider "winning a war alone", but winning a war using only your own soldiers and weapons bought with your own money with that money coming from your own people is for me "winning a war alone".

And I don't consider US aid to Israel after the Six-Day-War instrumental to winning the War of Independence.

Perhaps you are referring to this:

In January 1948, the treasurer of the Jewish Agency was convinced that Israel would not be able to raise more than $7–8 million from the American Jewish community. Meir traveled to the United States and managed to raise $50 million, which was used to purchase arms in Europe for the nascent state. Ben-Gurion wrote that Meir's role as the "Jewish woman who got the money which made the state possible", would go down one day in the history books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golda_Meir#Pre-state_political_role

As far as I know the majority of this money came from American Jews and other Americans, but the American government.

So yes, Israel fought those wars ALONE, or as alone as you can fight a war these days.

That is not the feeling Jews had during the Holocaust and during the War of Independence.

And it is not the feeling Israelis have today.

 

You're right Leuki, no one has ever done crap for Israel, it has been a vision of independence and self sufficiency since it sprang out of non existance completely at the hands of its people.  It is funded entirely from the industry and wealth of its people, never accepting donations from any nation... especially not the US.

Nothing the US or any other nation has ever done can be said to be worth mentioning.  I got it.

Rereading the OP, I see that the line about no nation would ever go to war to help the Jews was not said by Prs. Peres.   So I retract what I said about that line.

Leuki, that might not be the feeling the people get, but maybe that is because leaders like Prs. Peres aren't educating the people of Israel to the facts... or maybe they don't want the people realizing how dependent the nation is on the support of others?

 

Apparently a few had to die for you to appreciate the help.  Maybe some of the US troops permanently assigned to Israel will be willing to accomidate you, just so you might be grateful...

Do you think the world should leave Israel alone to stand on its own?

No, but to qualify for the "fight for Israel" bonus, they would have to fight.

I am sure they will. But the truth is that, as Peres has said, Israel has not asked the US to fight for Israel. The 600 soldiers in Israel are not supposed to fight, if Israel has her way.

 

THAT WOULD BE FANTASTIC.

Provided it really means leaving Israel alone, i.e. not attacking Israel, not giving money or any support to those who want to attack Israel, not creating artificial barriers to trade and travel, basically just acting as if Israel were a normal country with a vastly better record on human rights than all the other countries in the region and with fewer terrorists emanating from its borders.

It's a dream I often have.

But since the world, including the Arab world, has decided not to leave Israel alone, we'll just have to deal with what we have.

Israel fought the War of Independence alone.

And Israel also won several other wars alone.

I am sure Israel could survive further wars against the Arabs (IF nobody supports them or sells them weapons), without anybody's help.

The reason American help for Israel is valuable is not because it wins wars for Israel (it hasn't) but because it avoids wars for everyone (which it has).

By arming Israel the US make it more difficult for Arab states to attack Israel and that ultimately keeps the peace and benefits everyone, including the US.

 

 

I want to add that "leaving Israel alone" should also include not observing any special principles regarding Israel.

I.e. the US (and others) should treat territories occupied by Israel the same as territories occupied by, say, the US, Britain and France (I grew up in such a territory myself).

The US should treat land annexed by Israel the same as land annexed by the US (like Texas or Hawaii). ("You found a Jerusalem at your borders and annexed it when people attacked you from there and you won the war? Good for you!")

I think we are far, very far from such a world.

 

 

Right, 600 Artillery Soldiers were deployed to Israel with their missiles and light arms, but they weren't there to fight if need be.  Sure.

 

Then do it and never whine about anti semitism again!!!

You want to be on your own, quit accepting help!  No one is forcing it on Isreal!

 

While you're on your independent high horse, make sure God isn't intervening for you either!

Apparently we should stop.

I think they are there to avoid a war. I doubt Israel wants them to fight.

When "Free France" called for American help, you can be sure they wanted the Americans to fight.

On the other hand I cannot even imagine the terrible backlash for Israel if even one of those soldiers get hurts. I can see the headlines already, but I am sure I underestimate the protests all over the world over that.

 

How could I do that?

Israel can quit accepting help, but Israel cannot "quit accepting" help for her enemies. She cannot just "quit accepting" being attacked. The world ISN'T leaving Israel alone and anti-semitism is not going away if support for Israel is withdrawn*.

This is not about what Israel wants.

(*Well, technically it might. If Israel loses a war and all middle-eastern Jews die, anti-semitism might technically have vanished, at least until it rears its ugly head in the remaining regions with some Jewish inhabitants.)

 

Yes. When Shimon Peres says that Israel has never asked US soldiers to fight for Israel you should immediately act very very offended and stop all support for Israel. That's completely rational.

Peres cannot change history for you. It's a fact that Israel has never asked American soldiers to fight for Israel. And that's all he said about the US. It's also a fact that Israel did win her wars alone, without anybody fighting at her side (except, as I said, for the Lebanese Forces, but Israel didn't technically "win" that war).

(It's also true that many people in the middle-east oppose American support for Israel far more than they oppose Israel. American support comes at a price for Israel. It's not just something Israel profits from with no downsides. Heck, even in the West-Bank Palestinian workers are now angry that Obama demanded a construction stop in "settlements" where they work. And I have myself posted about how Jerusalem Arabs spoke out against becoming part of a Palestinian state and complained that nobody, certainly not the US, ever asked THEM about what should happen with them.)

 

 

I guess it's hard for the nation of Israel to try to perpetuate the matyr attitude and actually acknowledge the world doesn't hate you.

Israel cannot even get a break from you when her president (correctly) says that she never asked American soldiers to fight for her.

I know you don't hate Israel, but you have to admit that your reaction is a bit weird. I cannot imagine you reacting the same way if some other country that America supports financially but never sent soldiers to fight for (maybe Liberia or Egypt) would point that out when comparing themselves to European US allies.

If Mubarak (whose country gets almost as much money from the US as Israel) said tomorow that the Republic of Egypt always fought her wars alone and never asked the US to fight her wars for her, I doubt you would be as upset and angry, let alone demand that financial support be stopped or thought over. You would simply accept it as a true statement and not be bothered by it.

Clearly Israel is a very emotional subject for people on the other side of the world who are not Jewish and who are not Israeli.

But for me to "acknowledge" that the world doesn't hate Israel, I'd have to live in a world where "death to the Jews" is not such a common battle cry.

We can argue about the value of US help for Israel. We can even argue about whether 600 soldiers who haven't yet fought constitute military help comparable to what the US did for France and Britain.

But I don't want to argue over the existence of anti-semitism. I have been fucking shot at because it exists.

 

Ok, I meant more like "all" the world doesn't hate Israel.   I, for one, fully expect that either myself, my kids (or both) might someday be called upon to fight right along side you and others in defending Israel.  My reaction to this doesn't in any way diminish my support of Israel and all that entails.  

Yes, of course, anti semitism is too alive and too well, so one would think that Jewish people would appreciate the support that is offered, instead of shrug it off, or worse yet, act like it doesn't make a difference, or matter in the first place.

I thought so.

But the lesson of the Shoah was that when it comes down to the worst, NOBODY will help. (The Poles tried and couldn't.) Israel will be on her own. And this is what Israel must be ready for.

Israel has had real friends and allies like the US before, most notably (perhaps ironically) Iran*.

However, Israel thought she had real friends before World War 2 too, namely Britain. And you know how that went down. Britain ultimately didn't vote for the creation of Israel and supplied the Arab invaders with weapons, training, and even officers.

For various reasons I am sure the US won't go that far, but I am personally still convinced that if Israel loses a war, American forces will NOT come and fight to revive the country, despite people like you and other (mostly) Christians in the US wanting to do exactly that (and realising the immense importance).


(*Most people don't know this but a short time before the Muslims took Jerusalem from the Greeks, Jerusalem was under Jewish rule for a few years again, taken in a joint attack by Jewish and Persian Sassanid forces.)




I am sure Shimon Peres appreciates the support. But I am also sure that he remembers fighting the wars alone. He was in the military and the Haganah. He knows what happened back then. When the man responsible for buying weapons from the Europeans says that the war was won alone, the war was won alone. He is the primary source for it. (Shimon Peres is so old, he is the primary source for most of history, or so I think sometimes. Even the prime minister of Turkey calls him the "Wise Man of the Middle-East".)

What he said about Israel's relations with America is still true: in contrast to other US allies Israel has never asked America to send soldiers to die for Israel, the 600 soldiers currently stationed in Israel notwithstanding.

Peres' point was that Russia is often forgotten in the west. And in this case again, Russia seems to have been forgotten. Israel's first ally was the Soviet-Union (although not for long), and Israelis can travel to Russia visa-free (but not to the US). There are links between Russia and Israel that Americans probably cannot understand. (In fact I have problems understanding them because Russia keeps selling weapons to Israel's enemies even now.)

There was no Israel before the great wars.

That is correct, but then they did not need the help.

 

That makes 2 of us.

And as you point out, to her enemies as well.  That is the dichotomy of liberals.  They are supposed to be for peace, but they are mostly responsible for the wars and blood shed this nation has endured and its allies as well.  In other words, they talk out of one side of their mouth and then, either through stupidity or intention, make sure their actions bring about the opposite.

There was, in a very legal and real sense.

The British territory making up today's Israel, "occupied territories" and Jordan was a political unit with a government and bureaucracy. Its official languages were English, Hebrew, and Arabic. English because it was a British territory and Hebrew and Arabic because the population spoke those languages.

(In contrast to many people's claims Jews did live there and they always spoke Hebrew on markets and in public simply because their different native dialects of Arabic and Aramaic were not very universal. There is a Jewish cultural habit of using different languages even at the same place and switch between languages indoors and outdoors.)

The English named the territory "Palestine", after the Roman name. They also made that the official name in Arabic "Filastin". But in Hebrew the name of the territory was "Israel" and the complete legal English name was "Palestine (Land of Israel)" and it can be found as such in official British paperwork.

You can see the three names in three languages on the bank notes, the "Palestine Pounds", that pound remaining the Israeli currency for a while until it was replaced with a new currency named in Hebrew.

But there definitely was an "Israel" before 1948, just like there was a colony of Virginia before 1776. And even before World War 1 there was an "Israel", if not as a political unit.

Israelis never differentiated between the British territory Israel and the independent state of Israel. Legally there was no such huge difference either since the Israei parliament and bureaucracy existed before 1948 as a Jewish parliament and British bureaecracy and since British laws remained in effect until eventually replaced with Israeli law or repealed in favour of Turkish laws (and some remained in effect too).

Legally Israel is simply a country that gained independence from Britain, like Guyana (which existed as British-Guyana before independence) and India (which existed as British-India).

Remember that India was also partitioned several times, as was Ireland.

(Ironically Syria and Iraq were not partitioned despite the fact that they contain more different peoples than Israel.)

 

My intention was to say no "nation of Israel", as clearly it did not exist at that time.  That is not to say it never existed, just that from the founding of the US until 1948, there was no country called Israel, and hence no government to support or make alliances with.

There was a British territory called Israel and a people called Israel, represented by the Zionist World Congress which the British were allied with.

But it was not a nation to make pacts and treaties with.