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Resource Upgrade Techs - Do the math...

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Resource Upgrade Techs - Do the math...

from Stardock Forums

Facts
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(This data is from beta 4, Vasari, at normal speed)

The Vasari resource upgrade techs do in fact provide a 5% increase per asteroid, per ~second.

The TEC resource upgrades provide an almost 7% increase per asteroid, per ~second.

The game "tics" ~twice per second.

Asteroid colonies do indeed recieve the resource tech bonuses.

A -10% allegiance modifier will yield 10% less resources.

To put this data in perspective, a modest sized Vasari empire (5 colonies, each with 1 crystal asteroid) will produce 900 more crystal per hour with the first resource upgrade tech.


Analysis
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If I had to take an educated guess at what point it is viable to start researching resource tech's, first I would have to decide how long I am willing to wait for the tech to pay for itself, and how much crystal and metal are worth in credits.

So for shits and giggles lets say:

A) I'm willing to wait 15 minutes at most for the tech to pay for itself.
B) 50 crystal = 100 credits
C) 50 metal = 100 credits

The first Vasari tech costs 600 credits 50 metal and 100 crystal, or by my above conversion, 900 credits. If I want my upgrade to pay that off in 15 minutes or less I will need X resource extractors...

**Warning: if you don't care for math, skip to the last paragraph**

Assuming 100% allegiance on all extractors, the first upgrade nets 0.05 resources per second, per extractor. By my above conversion that translates to 0.1 credits per second per extractor.

900 credits / 0.1 credits per second = 9000 seconds or 2.5 hours for ONE extractor's bonus to pay for the total cost of the first upgrade.

I decided that an acceptable return on investment would be 15 minutes so...

15 minutes = 900 seconds / 9000 seconds for one extractor to pay it off = 0.1 (One extractor is a tenth of the extractors needed to meet the 15 minute quota)

So by these rough calculations, You should have AT LEAST 10 extractors before you research the first tech, and even then it will be 15 minutes before you get back what you spent, and start to profit from it. Remember 5% of 10 extractors is only 30 extra units of material per minute, or 1800 more per hour, so the increase in material is not drastic, even with 10 extractors. The tech is still very worth the investment in a 2 hour+ long multiplayer game.

Note: These calculations still roughly apply to TEC. Just remember you will need 10 extractors of the appropriate resource, and you get ~2% more of a bonus.
187,361 views 102 replies
Reply #26 from Stardock Forums Top
I guess you would need to play a few multiplayer games to truly know the value of 600/50/100 (especially early game). Spending that too early on something that will not even start to materialize for 30 minutes, or on something that does not help your immediate situation can easily cost you the game. For example in many early games there is a battle over a prime chunk of rock between empires. owning this chunk of rock can be the difference between your opponent shutting down your early expansion and forcing you into a defensive economy, or sealing off your half of the system, allowing you to expand virtually unchecked. 600/50/100 can mean 2 more frigs, and those two frigs can mean owning that chunk of rock, or not. That's just one example. Even in a situation where 600/50/100 is not going to be life-threatening, spending it on the resource tech too early can still be a bad move. For example instead you can spend that money on culture tech's to get the full benefit from your resource techs, when the time is ripe...
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top

I kinda zoned out in this thread...it happens.  :NOTSURE: 

Anyway, such discussions should probably wait as everything has been rebalanced in the release version - including the economy.  It's probably safe to say that Beta 4 people will not have much of a leg-up on new players in the grand scheme.

The Political Machine 2024
Reply #28 from Stardock Forums Top
I do intend to plug in gamma numbers as soon as I can get them. It could change everything, but the qustion will still need to be answered in my mind.  :D 
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
In short, because the exact value of the research changes from game to game he's giving us the tools to easily and quickly gauge its usefulness on a per-game basis, rather than trying to come up with a comprehensive rule. Its a good idea, and an intelligent approach
End of quote

its an intelligent analysis to another subject: initial growth. it is a crappy analysis on the "worth" of the research, as the research is well worth the investment.

its not a bad concept, its a wrong one. this research is relevant only to return times, and seeing as return times are short relative to a game its irrelevant. what I WOULD like was an analysis as to when, but he has not done this and until he does the info he gives us is applied 100% incorrectly.

he's researching monkies for the moon, so to create colloquialisms.

let me put it to you this way: this research ALWAYS pays off more than it cost in any non-close encounters game. therefore its "worth" as a research exceeds 100%, it should be researched ASAP (so that you can start reaping the benefits) there is no game I am yet aware of where a player has lost within the first 30 minutes (again save close encounters) so its worth researching. thats a capital PER-iod, no question.

now mica, you're numerical data is fine, but your analysis of your data is so far off the deep end its inane.

now obviously you shouldnt forgo more vital purchases that you would need imminently for the sake of a long term investment, but to say that because the investment takes a short term to come to repay itself justifies not buying it at all? thats madly absurd. You need to understand simple interest a little better.

in short, your analysis is nice and I personally appreciate it. but your advice is absurd: the minimalism of the investment and the grand nature of the return justify buying the research period, no matter how little it seems to return.

now tehre are errors in your analysis, for instance you seem to miss that the vasar gain bonuses for all resources. thats an important feature.

in any case it would be pleasent if you werent so asinine about my critiquing. there isnt much doubt that your math is right, but you sure as hell dont have much room to deny my refutes. so dont back down to the road to ad hominem again, I've had enough with annatar to last me a while.
Reply #30 from Stardock Forums Top
in short, your analysis is nice and I personally appreciate it. but your advice is absurd: the minimalism of the investment and the grand nature of the return justify buying the research period, no matter how little it seems to return.

now tehre are errors in your analysis, for instance you seem to miss that the vasar gain bonuses for all resources. thats an important feature.
End of quote


My advice is to invest in the research using your better judgment and the rough calculations I have provided. Never once did I say they were not worth it. In fact, I said "they are very worth the investment". My calculations include the fact that Vasari gain bounuses to both extractor types. The analysis was based on Vasari. 10 extractors total... It matters not if they are crystal or metal, as everything has been converted into credits for a rough overall rule of thumb calculation.

You should really try to understand what it is you are reading before you start telling people they are wrong.

The idea behind all of this was to find the optimal time to invest, not if you should invest or not.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
stop saying that Yarlen
we need to put the fear of god in the new guys
Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
Oooh, sorry.  :LOL: 
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
You can do that anytime, though. Just make them talk to eet for 5 minutes, he can make them be afraid of their own reflection.. always finds a way  :SURPRISED: 
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
So by these rough calculations, You should have AT LEAST 10 extractors before you research the first tech
End of quote

no mica, you are being absolutist:
this is absurd advice, "dont get unless you have", thats bad advice. the person should get the research well before then if they can afford it.

I've read carefully, and I see what you are, and are not, saying. what you are saying is when or not the research has a critical worth aspect, which would be entirely worth saying IF the research detracted materials below a certain point. it does not, it always provides benefits and therefore is a perfectly benefitial system: ergo worth getting.

now, if your analysis was about when it was worth trading off for other researches or equally priced items, that I might listen to you.
Reply #35 from Stardock Forums Top
the person should get the research well before then if they can afford it.
End of quote


Simply put, you can't afford it before then. I'm sorry Schod, fact is, if you research the tech before you have a homeworld and a minimum of 3 asteroid colonies, well then you dont have 10 resource asteroids, and you are pissing in the wind. 5% of zero is still zero. Get it yet? I dont care if you do. Research the damn thing as soon as the game starts, and take a 600/50/100 disadvantage for 30 minutes. By all means, knock yourself out.
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
that I might listen to you.
End of quote


ok, if you arent going to listen, please hush
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
2 things
1) again I've been here longer than you, I know what I can and cannot manage to continue a succesful buildup
2) a drop in a bucket is still a drop that your enemy doesnt have. something that snowballs into a much greater advantage if you are pressing the attack (one of the better strategies in this game)

again you dont seem to understand how easy it is to get up two logistics buildings and a single research, if you cant do it before you have 4 planets capped you are going to be trounced for your slow build up
do you understand this yet mica?
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
buying this upgrade as early as you deem feasible is at best pissing with a gentle gale at your back, at worst its pissing against a feeble, feeble breeze.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
Well, the analyses of return rate is nice, but it's useless without knowing the return rate of other techs and buildings.
I know for sure it's better to build a second mine, instead of grab the tech, but other ways to spend the money aren't so obvious. What, for instance, is the return rate on another frigate? What is the cost of the time a colony frig needs to recharge after a jump?

and, Schod does have a valid point. If you have "spare" money (that is not needed at the moment), then it is always a good investement.

It makes sense to always do whatever gives the best return rate per resource, but figuring out which provides the best rate is the hard thing.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
two logistics buildings and a single research,
End of quote


uhhh...

2) a drop in a bucket is still a drop that your enemy doesnt have. something that snowballs into a much greater advantage if you are pressing the attack (one of the better strategies in this game)
End of quote


unless he spends it on a laser upgrade and rapes you with it :O


1) again I've been here longer than you, I know what I can and cannot manage to continue a succesful buildup
End of quote


same with how far you ships shoot right?
Reply #41 from Stardock Forums Top
Invest in this upgrade whan you have more money then you know what to do with, or you have at least 10 resource asteroids, whichever comes first.

Oh wait... You will ALWAYS have at least 10 resource asteroids before you have more money then you know what to do with.

Schod, we are talking about 4 colonies here... not much at all. You simply must have the asteroids for the tech to be useful, and money should be spent very wisely in the opening minutes of a game. You cant win here.
Reply #42 from Stardock Forums Top
What, for instance, is the return rate on another frigate?
End of quote


Thes is where your better judgment comes in. Im simply showing you that you dont need to worry about it right away. One less thing to worry about early game, 600/50/100 more to spend on something that will help your current situation. That could be a frig, that could be a culture tech... who knows.
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top

unless he spends it on a laser upgrade and rapes you with it :O
End of quote

having been at the recieving end of my laser many a time, you cannot speak eet.
Schod, we are talking about 4 colonies here... not much at all. You simply must have the asteroids for the tech to be useful, and money should be spent very wisely in the opening minutes of a game. You cant win here.
End of quote

you're telling me you cant nab well over 1500 creds in the time it takes for a colony ship to recharge its antimatter twice? you DO need to work on your buildup!
Oh wait... You will ALWAYS have at least 10 resource asteroids before you have more money then you know what to do with.
End of quote

hint: use the black market, its vital early game.


in any case you still have different advice for the TEC: only buy the upgrade when they have ten+ planets, again thats a waste.
Reply #44 from Stardock Forums Top
hint: use the black market, its vital early game.
End of quote


Duh! What is your point?

in any case you still have different advice for the TEC: only buy the upgrade when they have ten+ planets, again thats a waste
End of quote


You are making shit up now. I said no such thing. Quote me on that, please, I would love it if you did because it would show that you cant read!

Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
mica, please calm down and try your best not to take shod seriously (i know itll be hard)
Reply #46 from Stardock Forums Top
What, for instance, is the return rate on another frigate?
End of quote


The return rate on these upgrades dont change from game to game, so you can calculate their worth, and optimal time of upgrade. The return rate on a frig chages vastly from game to game. You could build a frig that sits in your grav well collecting solar radiation, or you could build a frig that tips an early battle in your favor, and you wind up with a key choke point in the system.

As I said earlier, these calcs show that you dont need to worry about resource techs right away. That puts 600/50/100 + 2 labs worth of resources in your pocket for other things that will help your current situation. A player who researches the tech after 4 colonies is going to break even or do better resource wise compared to someone who researched the tech with only a homeworld. Only difference being, the person who researched the tech with only a homeworld will be at a 600/50/100 disadvatage early game. That could mean you loose an early culture war, that could mean you loose an early battle for a chioke point, or it could mean nothing at all.
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
mica, please calm down and try your best not to take shod seriously (i know itll be hard)
End of quote

LOL!
The return rate on these upgrades dont change from game to game
End of quote

yes it does, entirely dependant on your empire.
which is what makes these calculations even more shady, they cant dictate any absolutes.
  schod take it easy take a sissy
End of quote

*picks up redlab*
will this sissy do?
You are making shit up now. I said no such thing. Quote me on that, please, I would love it if you did because it would show that you cant read!
End of quote

you forgot our lovely IRC chat, so soon?

you're use of arbitrary "worth" in the form of return time isnt helpful. you should just put the data up there and leave each individual player to make their own educated decisions.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
you're use
End of quote


its one thing to leave out an apostrophe, but is adding one where it doesnt belong? :O
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
blah blah bla'h