Idea: Partial Real Time

from GalCiv2 Forums
The idea of turn-by-turn strategy games is to allow the player plenty of time to sit down and think about micro-managing, tactical moves to make, etc...

However, turn-by-turn is lacking some kind of realism. You can't "intercept" ships when they come your direction. If I have a ship that can move 15 parsec, he can simply fly over an AI ship that is limited to 3 persec. While in a RTS game setting, the AI ship could try to intercept my vessel, forcing my own ship to take evasive manoeuvers in order to pass by without any violence.

A fleet well positionned could virtually blockade whole areas if they were set to "intercept" (as long as they can destroy their opponent). RTS, on the other side, would lack what we all love: FREAKING TIME TO THINK AND PLAN!

That is why I propose the "Partial Real Time" setting. The idea was implimented on a limited scale in the game Star Wars: Rebellion. The game was real-time, but there were different time frame. It was.. imperfect, because something bad would happen when you chosed "fast forward", and you would not have the time to correct it (when 2 months pass in 5 seconds...)

Now, what I would propose is "Partial Real Time". The whole game acts in term of "time unit" (= 1 months?), however, the time flows constantly. It really takes 1 full real-time day to spend 1 time unit in "real time". So, in "real time", there wouldn't be much happenning. Plenty of time to plan and act.

But, when you have issued all orders. When all ships know where to go or what to do, when all planets know what to build. When all scientist... you see the picture, right? You could press the button "to next event". So the game would automaticly jump forward in time to "when something happens".

Example of "something that happens":
- Planet finished building something
- Tech researched
- Ships arrived at destination
- Ships sees something on sensor that you triggered. (no point stopping the game for every freaking ally freighter).
- Ships has something unexpected
- 5 time unit passed without a thing (the number of "time unit" would be choosed by the player. Do you want to go forward small steps by small steps?)

(note, the last one is to allow the player to be able to keep an eye on the general situation. No way I want to jump 30 time unit in the future )

That way, we still would be able to micro-manage the entire empire, but include real-time strategies and fleet deployment.

(NOTE: We could even include communication delays for communications between governements, or between a ship and a governement?)
23,250 views 27 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
bump
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
(NOTE: We could even include communication delays for communications between governements, or between a ship and a governement?)


I thought of that but I'm not sure how fun it would be.
The Political Machine 2024
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
This suggestion is very similar to what has been implemented in the game "Knights of Honor", and it works quite well there. However, in that game there are far fewer things to keep track of - no tech tree, no detailed economy, and most importantly only a very limited number of units moving about on the screen at a time (usually only 1-5 per player, max 9). It's not a bad idea, but you'd have to change Galactic Civilizations a significant amount before it would work.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Laser Squad Nemesis uses semi-real time combat. Both sides submit their orders, and the turn is processed by the server. When you get the results back, you can watch what happens over the next 10 seconds using video style controls. After that, you react and plot new orders for the next 10 seconds, and so on. Free trials are available, though only as Marines.
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Think of it: you trace a big exploration route for your survey vessel, and one in a while, the "event alarm" informs you that it discovered a planet, an anomaly, etc..

If it's an anomaly, you can always choose to divert course to investigate. The choice shows you the delay time from your original course.

If it's a system, you could ask the ship to chart it. Etc...


However, later in the game, you send an attack fleet inside Drengin Territoy. It detects an ennemy drengin BattleGroup.

your choices:

- Intercept Course (12 time unit delay from main objective)
- Evasive Manoeuvers (but try to reach objective)
- Evasive Manoeuvers at all cost, until the ennemy fleet is no longer on intercept course.

etc.. It would had some kind of.. fluidity on the game..
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Bump

I really love this idea
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I would have to echo crass_monkey on this one and say that there is just too much going on in this game for your idea to be used. This isn't to say that your thoughts aren't good, because they are and they do make sense, but this game is, unfortunately, all about the micromanagement (now the expansion may be a different story, haven't played it yet).
I fully support your ideas on rules of engagement/military doctrine however and in reading what you've posted here with regards to commanding ships to take evasive action, flee, whatever it seems that you have these covered with both posts.
Stick with the ROE/MD ideas and let the partial RTS die by the side of the road.  
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
/me looks at both his ideas with father's love..

Leave one of them to die by the side of the road...?

... why..  why should the world be such a cruel place?

However, "partial" real time wouldn't prevent micromanagement. The idea is that in "real" time, the time just flow sloooooowly, real real real real slow, letting you do everything you wanna do, micromanage all the way. But you would have an option to "fast-forward" to the next event when you have done everything you wanted.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
why.. why should the world be such a cruel place?


Well you didn't have to go and get all sniffly now...  reaching for the tissues...  
By the way, this is killing my rep, you know?  
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
By the way, this is killing my rep, you know?


With a nick of "Evil Stormbringer"???

Well you didn't have to go and get all sniffly now... reaching for the tissues...


Bah, just a little emotional blackmail, nothing to get afraid of.

But is my point about allowing micromanagement while having some fluidity to the game valid..? Or I miss something?
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Your point is valid. I myself was never, ever, ever into micromanagement but this game just brought out that side of me. Even now I wouldn't really say that I truly "enjoy" the micromanagement (although I swear Mumblefratz lives for it)but I've adapted my gameplay style to deal with it and I actually find it a nice diversion from the everyday grind of micromanaging my life/bills.  
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Wait wait wait. Maybe we could even add a hard-coded cap to metal resources for ship and improvement building. That would make it REALISTIC! We could turn off auto piloting, and alternate every single parsec move with every opponent alive! That way we can intercept! I want every single object that is new that comes across any ship sensor on my gigantic map to stop me with a pop up! I want every relations status change between races to inform me that it's happened! If military, economic, social production, influence, or any other ranking changes in the slightest, it would be nice if I recieved a message about it! It would be REALISTIC! Like, you actually have to do leader work and read every report you would receive as a leader, REAL TIME! I want to hand count the votes of each of my elections! If I have 99% morale on a planet, i want to be able to ask the unhappy citizen "Why are you not pleased with my empire?"

He would respond: "Cuz I'm playing this new patch on Galactic Civ, that makes it more realistic. It's not fun anymore, it's work. I'd rather watch grass grow, but this is a rock planet."


yes, i know I'm exaggerating... a lot.
But please, all cool/good ideas aside... why would you want to slow the game down?
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
But please, all cool/good ideas aside... why would you want to slow the game down?


I never advocated slowing the game down n0v4k4n3, nor would I. Like I told Cikomyr, this idea really just needed to die a quiet death. His point is valid in my opinion, but definitely not towards this game. I do give props out to his tactics ideas though, and as you might have seen, at least Brad seemed receptive, which is the first step towards (hopefully) getting some better tactical features.  

And just to say, it wouldn't be the same if you didn't dramatize the scenarios from time to time. Exaggerate to your heart's content buddy, for it adds that extra "spice" to these threads!
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Both sides submit their orders, and the turn is processed by the server.


This would be the only way I think it could work with GalCiv2.

At the beginning of each turn, the AI submits its orders; the screen then allows the player to do the same. Just think of it as The AI and the Player taking their turns at the same time. This could be called the Management stage.

Once all orders are received, the human player hits the turn button. Same as we do now, but instead of all of our remaining moves with our auto pilot ships going first, and then all the AI moves, everything moves at the same time. Keep the turns in the week increment. Not exactly real time but it gives the possibility of ships actually evading an attack. Example would be a ship moving at 3 parsecs a week would only move half as fast as a ship moving 6 parsecs a week during the movement stage. If any ships make contact then a battle ensues. Once the battle is concluded, the ships that were victorious would stop where the battle took place to regroup and repair.

I am sure this would be pretty difficult to do as it stands, it was just a thought.
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

This would be the only way I think it could work with GalCiv2.


Wrong. Know your history.

Imperium Galactica 2 was a real time 4x game. Very well done. Could have been a lot better but the ideas were outstanding.

Laser Squad Nemesis uses semi-real time combat.


Laser Squad Nemesis sucks rhinoceros balls. The height of tactical combat is Apocalypse and Silent Storm. Both games suffered from incompetent publishers. Laser Squad Nemesis, in contrast, is crap on its own lack of merits. Even Aftermath and Aftershock are better than Laser Squad. Come to think of it, even Star Trek Away Team was orders of magnitude better than Laser Squad.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Imperium Galactica 2 was a real time 4x game. Very well done. Could have been a lot better but the ideas were outstanding.


I'm glad to see another fan of this great game. I still pull it out and give a play once in a while. Had a couple flaws, but considering the ambitious gameplay elements. Real fun game.  

As far as any type of continuous time system in GCII. Have to say "pipe dream", but any discussion of ideas can be productive.  
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Each planet in IG2 was a city which is pretty much how GC2 works. The cityscape was beautiful. Good use of audio. Planetary defenses that chewed up a portion of any invading fleet. 3D ground combat.

It ended at 1.06 but it looks like fans built it up to 1.14.

Bioware does turn based calculations in what appears to be real time. Knights of the Old Republic and Neverwinter Nights are actually turn based. You hit pause to stop the calculation of turns and queue orders.

Galactic Civilizations 2 is already using a 3D engine. They can provide a 3D planet view like IG2. As far as the AI keeping up in a real time 4x, it's possible. The weakness of IG2 AI could have boiled down to processor time. With oodle core chips, maybe an AI of GC2's strength is ready for real time with pause.
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
/me now understand Evil Stormbringer's point...

No.. NO! I HAVE CREATED A MONSTER!!! I MUST KILL IT!

I was more thinking in the way of ST: BotF treated "same-time"
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Wrong. Know your history.


Never said I was right, I was solely basing my thought on information I was currently aware of, hence the reason for the words "I think". Also, I had referred this comment with a quote from Evil Muppet which pointed me in the direction of turn based strategy with some real time flavor, which I haven't really experienced. The idea I had mentioned in my last post was for a hybrid of the two distinct types of computer strategy games, not saying that it would work, or if it would even be compatible. Just sounded like something that could be done with Galciv2 with some changes in the TBS format, but still not making it a RTS. The idea could be considered for Galciv3 even, who knows. If done right, I think it would be rather fun.

Also, I have not had the pleasure to read about or play every single game created in the TBS, RTT or RTS genres. From the way Imperium Galactica 2 has been described by you (Wheel) and others, and by the rather interesting Wiki site, seems like I missed a good one. Is the game still available?

Personally, I would rather have a TBS game as opposed to a RTS, but if Imperium is that good maybe I should give it a try.


Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You should definitely check out Imperium Galactica 2. I suspect you can get it used on Amazon. Hegemonia is made by the same developers in what was supposed to be the third installment of Imperium but copyright and publisher problems forced the different name.

It's not a bad $10 to spend. It will expand your mind on how 4x can run.

I've played good games. Definitely not all games. I'm very particular about real time. If I cannot pause and issue orders, I won't buy it. On something as big as 4x, pausing and queuing is pretty much mandatory. Any RTS that simply pauses is an idiotic clickFest. X-Com Apocalypse and Star Trek Away Team were outstanding tactical games because you had speed and strategy when you wanted/needed it.

99% of the time, real time strategy is better understood as "real time tactical" because there's no strategic element involved.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thanks Wheel, I am going to go pick it up as soon as I am able.

I have played games like Star Craft and Homeworld, so I have a little bit of knowledge in this area. I am looking forward to it.
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The original idea wasn't to turn GalCiv2 into a Starcraft-like game. I love to have the time to plan everything in my little corner of the galaxy. I was more of a way to keep the +s of the TBS (careful planning) while having the inclusion of the good parts of the "real time" (interceptions, simultaneous moves, "trapping" ships).

To be able to pause and issue orders is great, but I was more thinking like:

over 3 weeks of "in-game" time, there is usually 6 events that happens. The first at time unit 0.5031 ; the other at time unit 1.104 ; (etc...)

When you have made the proper acknowledgement/orders to solve even at time unit 0.5031, you can either stay there (with the clock going forward 0.0001 time unit/minutes in "real time"), or simply click "next event", when the game jumps forward in time up to the next event. You still have all the time available to make decisions, or even make a general check-up on everything.

there would be no way the events would overwhelm your management ability (like there could be in some chaotic "pause-and-click" RTS)
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You described the type of events in an earlier post. For some reason though I am not sure I would want to handle it that way. What about being able to see where the AI is moving his ships, or constructing star bases or what he is building or researching?

I have grown rather fond of trying to figure out what the hell the AI is trying / wanting to do, not being able to see this while the game is looking for the next event would definitely put me at a disadvantage during game play.

At the beginning of each turn, the AI submits its orders; the screen then allows the player to do the same. Just think of it as The AI and the Player taking their turns at the same time. This could be called the Management stage.


This was an idea to combine RTS / RTT and TBS with Galciv2. It would allow you to manage but also give you a semi real time feel.

The only other thing I can think of that resembles this idea would be an older game that had a feel for what you were describing. That would be X-COM UFO Defense.

You were able to manage your troops, bases, supplies, research and such while the game was paused. After you exited the management screen you went to a real time rotating world where you were able to choose how fast time progressed until the next event. Usually that event was a UFO sighting, where you could slow down the clock to 5 seconds and launch your intercept craft and your troop ship. Once you landed at the crash site the game went back to a squad level turn based strategy.

Once all orders are received, the human player hits the turn button. Same as we do now, but instead of all of our remaining moves with our auto pilot ships going first, and then all the AI moves, everything moves at the same time. Keep the turns in the week increment. Not exactly real time but it gives the possibility of ships actually evading an attack. Example would be a ship moving at 3 parsecs a week would only move half as fast as a ship moving 6 parsecs a week during the movement stage. If any ships make contact then a battle ensues. Once the battle is concluded, the ships that were victorious would stop where the battle took place to regroup and repair.


The only real benefit with this would be fleets and ships would move in real time, allowing intercept strategies to be implemented within the game.
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Your main point is that you want to intercept fast ships with slower ones if the slow ones come close by. How about a new auto-pilot option 'intercept'. Shove your ship on this, and if any enemy ship passes within the remaining move distance of your ship, you automatically move to attack and go to the battle screen.
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You described the type of events in an earlier post. For some reason though I am not sure I would want to handle it that way. What about being able to see where the AI is moving his ships, or constructing star bases or what he is building or researching?


That is why it would be a good idea to make auto-pause every 5 time unit (# set by the player himself) when nothing happens, just so you don't miss any good action around. But I guess if one of your ship detects a foreign vessel on his patrol (or raiding) route, he would make a report, then stopping the flow of time for you to acknowledge and/or issue proper order (INTERCEPT AND DESTROY!)

Your main point is that you want to intercept fast ships with slower ones if the slow ones come close by. How about a new auto-pilot option 'intercept'. Shove your ship on this, and if any enemy ship passes within the remaining move distance of your ship, you automatically move to attack and go to the battle screen.


This option was implimented in ST:BotF, and was... well, usefull, but not perfect.

The main difference is that in BotF, destroying a foreign ship wasn't considered an act of war. A good option, if we want to keep the (attack = war) contingency, would also be the command "blockade", effectively hampering other ship's movement over their squares. (Then again, if we had real-time movement, movements would be totaly integrated, and there would be no "squares", only area of effect)

But it's a big dream, I fear... When I'll be rich, I'll donate 400 K$ to Stardock if they accept to impliment it...

hell, make it 4M$!