New way of looking at technology

Thoughts?

an interesting concept but amybe for glaciv3 to implement this now in a patch would require way too much ai changing to be feasable but definently somehting to think about

and i agree that there needs to be something done about technology in both RTS and TBS games in general, it all fits the exact pattern that every other game has done and has gotten for the most part extremely boring

Sounds like a great idea. Would definately put some value into espionage beyond "pay x credits, learn x info".

Indeed. As the subtitle says, this would probably be way too difficult for an update, since I would imagine (not being a programmer at all) that it would require a complete rewrite of the game. However, this would add a nice element of reality to the tech system, and make tech as powerful as it should be, without unbalancing the game.

This is actually fairly similar to how technology is looked at in economics. With some work and a little tweaking I could see it being a very interesting twist on the way technology works in a game.

It is also very similar to how tech research is treated in games like Europa Universalis I&II and Hearts of Iron 1&2. Hearts of Iron is set during the Second World War, and so they can place a "Historical Date" on each tech that gives penalties to those who research things much earlier than is historical.

Europa Universalis figures out what the average tech level around your coutnry is (IIRC), and adjusts your tech progress accordingly (if you are behind you get bonuses, ahead you get penalties). Like what the OP is proposing.

However, this is problematical to implement in GalCiv, I believe. Assuming that we set up a set where your tech rating (say the "Tech" number that is shown in the planetary invasion screen) is compared to the tech ratings of those around you, and your research speed is changed accordingly. In this situation, a player (or AI) could do something like only research beam-weapon techs and get later beam-weapons unnaturally fast. After all, if one only has beam techs, the tech rating of that civ will be lower in most cases than a civ that has diversified. Thus the beam-only civ would get a bonus, making it easier to get higher level beam techs.

In short, a system like this would unfairly reward a player for extremely specialising in one particular branch of the tech tree in most cases that I can think of. Thus, I think this would be difficult, if not impossible, to implement in GalCiv correctly.

Still, in general a well done mechanism for changing tech speed would be a very interesting feature.

I think that what Saguinius is suggesting is that it's calculated per tech. Say you have Laser IV and for every week after you have it the tech becomes less expensive for others to research. So after 3 years or so you get that tech for free since it's been in the galaxy so long that you must have figured everything about it by then. Of course that is only if you have encountered the race that has it.
Also there's some merit in the 'the more you use it, the more they see' approach, if you use Laser IV on every ship, it should become quicker for others to research it than if you never use it, since many races have been exposed to it.
Doing it on a "per tech" basis probably requires way too much computing power as well as a lot of developer time so I'd be surprised to find it in the next GalCiv, but it would definitely be fun to see somewhere in a game.

Well, the fact of the matter is technology has always been done fundaementally wrong in games. HoI2 and EUII don't do anything different really, they just add a few very small tweaks to the typical system.

Part of the problem is that from a design perspective, you want to give the player something to do and give them more control over things. Therefore, you a finite amount of research you can do at a time (either it's like in GC2 or Civ games where you research one tech at a time or it's like HoI2 where you have X amount of tech teams) but the player gets to pick everything that gets researched.

What would be most accurate is to identify areas of interest to focus research - the level of detail could vary depending on the amount of control one wants to give to the player - and allow research to "naturally occur." Just looking at the three weapon types, say you devoted the majority of units to beam, and a few to missiles - you'll get advances in beams more often then missiles, but you might get a beam advance and a missile advance in the same turn depending on how things worked out. The research takes any area that has resources devoted to it (this is of course ignoring that a scientist working on a laser probably wouldn't be very good at figuring out how to make interstellar banks).

But one other aspect could be relatively easily captured to make a realistic research system: So many advances occur from research in other areas. Military research during World War II lead to all sorts of nifty advances in the civilian world during and after the war. So one could (relatively easily) model how techs are intertwined to some extent. For example, putting a lot of research into beam advances would probably lead to more successful research of shields to counteract the beams. And it would be very difficult to figure out how to best counteract a beam without knowing how they work.

The ultimate issue comes down to figuring out how to best make a moderately complex but at least slightly more accurate system work for the player so that they gain from having it on a whole, rather than feeling like they're just having control and options removed from them.

That sounds, pretty much, awful. There is no impetus to have a technological advantage, or to even focus on tech.

If you were to make a game like this, it would affect every level of the game's design. The fundamental theorem of tech-based TBS games is that knowledge==victory. If you do this kind of thing, that theorem needs to change. Or, that an individual technological advance is an incredibly powerful thing, and there would have to be far fewer of them than there are in GC2.

You're talking about a different game that needs to be built from the ground up to make it actually work in gameplay.

I would just keep this mostly abstract, but implementation of this may not be quite that difficult.

Lets say that at some point, an espionage specific branch of the tech tree as implemented. I would put this item on that tech branch.

Reverse Engineering

You gain X% of another civ's current research applied to the same path they are currently researching, and a similar bonus to researching any techs that the civ in question already knows.

Advancing along that path would increase the percentage.

END COMMUNICATION

Isn't it wierd how everytime a concept idea is born, the common reaction is random people's opinions on what may or may not be added to the AI?

Regardless, Galciv 2 is what it is. There's no major, game-changing changes to be expected after 1.1

I'd like to expand on this, if I could.

The way it would be really nifty to be done would be similar to what Sangiusius described, but here's my fleshed out version:

The research tree isn't a tree perse, but more of a list of research possibilities. There would be energy, population, industry, etc. They would be very broad categories that would allow for more specific researching to be done later. Rather than researching one at a time, you could allot a specific amount of research points/turn into each of the categories.

Then, when you have enough points built up in, say energy, you could "buy" an advancement. Say, lasers to begin with. Lasers would cost something like 500 research points in Energy to "buy". But, lasers mark II would only cost 100, with the requirement of having Lasers mark I already researched.
However, if an alien species already has Lasers Mark II, and you've had x number of battles against them, so you are familiar with the concept of lasers mark II, then the advancement cost would be slightly lowered. Or, you could forgo buying lasers mark ii, and save up your research points to completely skip lasers marks ii through v, and jump right into phasers. But, the cost for doing such would be greater than lasers+mark ii+mark iii+mark iv+mark v+phasors (so, if the "base cost" is 500, plus 100 for each level of improvement (for a total of 900 research points to reach lasers mark v, then 500 to research phasors), it would cost you a total of 1000 research points to skip ahead from lasers to phasors, or 1500 to skip from nothing to phasors).

This could also open up avenues of "joint research" with other races. If, for example, you open a joint research alliance with the Thalans, and they have 50 rp going into energy, and you have 50 rp going into energy, then you both have 100 rp going into energy, and you both gain the same achievements at the same time. The risk to this would be, you might be saving your RP to jump five marks to the next new technology, while the Thalans are content upgrading to new marks each time. Then, just as they've reached phasors mark iii, and you're only on lasers mark iii (waiting enough points to skip phasors all together and get disruptors), the Thalan cut off research trade and declare war against you. You're stuck with pea shooters, while they're shredding your ships to bits.

You'd also be unaware of how other races are allocating their research (except for those involved in joint research, or maybe even even narrower, you chose one research field to conduct joint research on, rather than a blanket joint research pact), unless you have spies working in their domains. By allocating spending to the spy network, you could opt to have your spies just monitor what your neighbours are researching, or have them acquire some of the information (for research bonuses, or a chance of getting caught and sparking a war). If you're working on energy with the Thalans, and they've developed Phasors Mark II, your spy can come back and tell you and ask if you want to acquire it. If yes, and successful, you've gained a free research product. If you fail, well, you've got other problems to deal with.

I think its a good idea for an expansion or galciv3 or even another 4x game... would add another whole dimension to reasearch ie also should i use said reasearch yet... gives a "top secret" element to your latest techs...

Now just something to expand the lackluster espionage in gal civ2 and i'll be happy

Bleh, this sounds too much like racing games, where the card in the lead is slowed down (or every other car gets a speed bonus).

I rather like the idea of different technologies clashing. I want the new drengin superlaser to be the terror of the cosmos- that is, until I unveil the latest incarnation of my missile tech.

Besides, you can only learn so much from observation anyway.

There are games that have a sort of "blind research" already, where you research in an area and get various improvements based on how much research you put into each area. Most of them allow you to research multiple areas at once, putting various amounts of your available points into each area.

I don't see a problem, however, with GC2's system, because if you look at it, it is based more on a combination of "cornerstone technologies" and "incremental improvements". Laser is a cornerstone technology, and basically does not change fundamentally through all the incremental improvements of Laser II, Laser III, etc. - it is still the same thing, but you get small improvements to it over time. Later on, you make a big discovery of a completely new tech, still a beam weapon but completely different and much more powerful; however, the first iteration isn't really much better, if at all, than two of the highest-improved versions of the last tech. It often isn't until you have refined the new tech before it is significantly better in ship space/effect ratio than the old tech.

I think people misunderstand the point. This would not provide a "bonus" to slow researchers or a "penalty" to fast ones, since the techs would be that much more powerful. I don't care how many machine guns you have, my B-52's are going to kill you all, until you build something to counteract it, which never would have occured unless you saw some in action. You would have less time to capitalize on your advantage, but it would be such a greater advantage that it wouldn't matter as much. Just think of black hole eruptors. The idea is that you open a BLACK HOLE next to the enemy. This shouldn't be doing damage that a hundred base level mass drivers could beat. This should be tearing the enemy to shreds, doing damage thousands of times greater than base level mass drivers or missles. But, it wouldn't be long after you started using them that someone else could figure it out, so you need to use them effectively, quickly.

P.S. And, as stated several times (look at the original post sub-heading) THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS AN UPDATE. It would have to be for a new game, as I'm sure it would require fundamental reworking of the game from the bottom up.