Introduced FE to a friend, and his reply...

from Elemental Forums

So I highly recommended FE to a friend, it came on sale, I told him it was worth the price, he bought it, and here's what he told me...

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"They’ve done a lot with the game, but I don’t know... it seems very “land grab spam”. I can’t even build up my cities, I’ll be getting 2 under a decent start and then I run into my first AI opponent who’ll have 8+. Think I’ll go back to Arcane or something else. "

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Interesting response, as he notes the progression from EWoM, graphics, features, etc, but it all seems to fall to the floor when he discovers the big fat elephant in the room.

I realize this was probably his first or second playthrough, but he's no noob to 4x games. I think this emphasisizes the issues with the AI and its too obvious cheat advantages. Game AI needs to cheat, as until true AI can be afforadably modelled and programmed, its the only alternative for us Hadrcore gamers. 

But what destorys the illusion of "me" against equal level opponents versus a hostile world, is when Epic Dragons armies, a supposed neutral faction whose game purpose is to obstruct city spam, is obviously allied and slewed in favour of protecting the AI factions from the player. As a game function it inheritely works to aid the AI as a whole against the player, defeating the purpose of having a hositle world verusus emerging factions - its the world and AI factions against you -- have fun. This is normally not an issue in such games unless its blatanly obvious if the lore tells you one thing, but the game works in opposite, thus destroying the illusion and the game's lore of having a hostile to all world against factions who are trying to emerge and grow into a powerful empires.

Don't get me wrong now, I'm a Stardock fan, Loved GalCiv, Sins, love FE, and hope to to love LH, but you guys have got to aim your barrel in a different direction. You've come a long way from EWoM, but you need to create a better illusion for the player. Do something to improve the faction AI against the hostile world, while providing the illusion thats its struggling like the player is. It will make a world of difference, honestly.

One example - Program the player factions that they should clear an area of hostile entities before settling a city, even if you don't bother to alter the criteria in regards to, "whats living beside that sweet spot for my next city". At least this would provide the "illusion" that its semi-conscious of that Epic Dragon Army living beside the same spot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
35,551 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I have limited experience so folks should correct me if I'm wrong ... but the flaw I see in your idea of clearing the area first is that AI factions don't battle monsters the same way a player faction does.  As far as I can tell the AI stack walks up to a monster stack and defeats it automatically.  I've watched an AI stack clear out half of a quest area without losing a single HP (shadowing it with one unit) while I was sloging through the other side with a much stronger stack.  I remember feeling fustrated that they had it so easy.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

There's been a large improvement with city spam. Stardock needs to have pioneers costing a large amount of population,  and have scouts assemble outposts tbh.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

There are a couple of different ways of handling the issue, but we may not be privy to all the information behind the curtain. But i do agree that the entire world does appear to be very one sided. However that doesn't mean that it's unbeatable, i've conquered civilizations that were much larger then me on several occasions.

It is however annoying to capture a city and then have to spend the next 6 turns clearing the monsters out of the surrounding tiles before i can move on to the next city, since i've lost a few cities to monsters that way... If they will attack me at this point then they should have attacked the AI.

 

 

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

The elephant in the room is that you don't mention the difficulty level your friend was playing on.

I am sure your friend is uber awesome at 4x.  But if your or your friend don't want the AI to cheat, then don't pick the options that allow the AI to cheat.  (One of the cheats the AI uses at higher difficulty levels is that monsters will never attack AI units.)

Start a new game on a Large map with 6-7 opponents.  Set the world difficulty to Normal or Challenging.  Set all the AIs to Challenging.  Play.  You and your friend will probably have a much nicer time.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

One example - Program the player factions that they should clear an area of hostile entities before settling a city, even if you don't bother to alter the criteria in regards to, "whats living beside that sweet spot for my next city". At least this would provide the "illusion" that its semi-conscious of that Epic Dragon Army living beside the same spot.
End of quote

I have to admit, it would be pretty sweet if there were 'mini-wildlands' - basically Deadly+ monsters that inhabit a small wild area, that when cleared offer a special resource, an uber city location, a horde of treasure, or any combination thereof.

Dragons ought to be a little more special than your typical wandering mob.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 4

The elephant in the room is that you don't mention the difficulty level your friend was playing on.

I am sure your friend is uber awesome at 4x.  But if your or your friend don't want the AI to cheat, then don't pick the options that allow the AI to cheat.  (One of the cheats the AI uses at higher difficulty levels is that monsters will never attack AI units.)

Start a new game on a Large map with 6-7 opponents.  Set the world difficulty to Normal or Challenging.  Set all the AIs to Challenging.  Play.  You and your friend will probably have a much nicer time.
End of sweatyboatman's quote

 

Are you sure that is how the AI cheats work? I don't think the difficulty level toggles whether or not the monsters attack the AI players. I think your analysis and your suggestion may be incorrect.

 

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top


Funny that your friend mentioned "land grab spam" cuz that's I had given FE a very similar subtitle:  Fallen Enchantress: Land Grab.  They helped this by changing pioneers to population, but then they moved it back to gildar.  Thankfully, LH is using pop instead of gildar.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jshores, reply 6
Are you sure that is how the AI cheats work? I don't think the difficulty level toggles whether or not the monsters attack the AI players. I think your analysis and your suggestion may be incorrect.
End of jshores's quote

Are you sure?  I think your analysis of my analysis may be incorrect. :moo:

I'm pretty confident that Frogboy has stated on these forums that at the higher difficulties the monsters do not attack the AI.  It's possible that I misunderstood.  It's possible that the code that controls such things has been changed since then.

In general, it's also borne out by my experience playing the game.  But that is very subjective.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Couldn't agree more with you Praylak. There are days where I'm on the verge of saying to some of my friends to pick up the game, and there are days where I'm deeply disappointed by how the game works.

 

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 4

But if your or your friend don't want the AI to cheat, then don't pick the options that allow the AI to cheat.  (One of the cheats the AI uses at higher difficulty levels is that monsters will never attack AI units.)
End of sweatyboatman's quote

 

Right now for experienced strategy players, either you play below expert and have no challenge whatsoever. Or you play above it and need to exploit the game weaknesses to pull out a victory (at first it was quest loop with lightning hammers, then juggs, now dodge stack and easy Spell of making victory with a bit of beastmaster). It's come to a point where this topic pops up every week or so on the forum, and is immediatly met with several people denying the monsters' behaviour towards the AI and blaming it on the difficulty. Is it too much to ask for fun&challenge at the same time? ala AoW for exemple.

 

Having the AI cheats at higher difficulty levels in any game is ok.. even if it feels cheap, since human players wanting a challenge should be able to outsmart the AI after figuring out the appropriate tactics (take the research/income rate/starting location that the AIs get for exemple).

But having the game flawed to the point were your opponents hardly interact with the world you play in is, in my most honest opinion, the biggest probem of this game. Why the AI units are (almost) immune to monsters, coming from wildlands or being neutral? It does not make any sense. It makes the world feel more dull than anything else.

 

There are rules that have to be observed by every playing side in games. In a 4x strategy game, having the AI interact with neutral monsters as the player do is one of them, especially at higher difficulty levels.

i.e: you send you settler or citizen unprotected in a civ5 game, it gets taken by barbarians=> your fault, now go and deliver it. AI settlers are not immune to the rules.

 

People have been asking for proofs lately (are we playing the same game?), so let me give you a few exemples:

 

Stealth pioneers

 

 

 

Clearly a good location

 

More stealthy pioneers

 

Stealth army

 

 

Really?

 

Guess what happens when it's your hero?

 

Pioneers' party!

 

 

Stealth pioneer, again

 

From city placement&armies to pioneers, you can clearly see the pattern of monsters avoiding AI units (and playing the game you can clearly see how the monsters stalk your units even when AI units are closer). Again, my question is: why? As I said before, having the AI get out with some of these situations is ok, but not all of them, every game, in a consistent way.

 

I have encountered these situations from challenging to ridiculous, from the day of FE release to today's LH 0.75 patch, in every game!

 

Isn't it time to use this potential?

https://forums.elementalgame.com/436954/page/1/

 

The game has a soul but lacks balance in many aspects and a better AI, and I fear that several of these issues are not gonna be addressed any time soon, as they have not been (or hardly been addressed) in the past:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/437178/page/1/

https://forums.elementalgame.com/440554/page/1/

https://forums.elementalgame.com/442354/page/1/#3340039

https://forums.elementalgame.com/442751/page/1/

https://forums.elementalgame.com/442652/page/1/#3341798

https://forums.elementalgame.com/438336/page/1/

https://forums.elementalgame.com/438616/page/1/

https://forums.elementalgame.com/438622/page/1/

https://forums.elementalgame.com/439017/page/1/

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 8


Quoting jshores, reply 6Are you sure that is how the AI cheats work? I don't think the difficulty level toggles whether or not the monsters attack the AI players. I think your analysis and your suggestion may be incorrect.

Are you sure?  I think your analysis of my analysis may be incorrect.

I'm pretty confident that Frogboy has stated on these forums that at the higher difficulties the monsters do not attack the AI.  It's possible that I misunderstood.  It's possible that the code that controls such things has been changed since then.

In general, it's also borne out by my experience playing the game.  But that is very subjective.
End of sweatyboatman's quote

 

I don't remember anything like that. Can you provide a link?

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Ugh, I tried to find it.  But it's buried pages down in some pre-FE-release thread.  I remember it because I was on that thread saying "The monsters treat everyone the same" and then Frogboy came on and said, "On higher difficulties the monsters do not attack the AI."  Which I was like "Huh"?

Edit, again, no... that wasn't it.  That was the post where Frogboy had convinced me that the monsters treat everyone the same.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 11
Ugh, I tried to find it.  But it's buried pages down in some pre-FE-release thread.
End of sweatyboatman's quote

Found it!

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

This,

Quoting Frogboy, reply 18

Also, World Difficulty above challenging means the monsters will go after you more than the AI.
End of Frogboy's quote

is drastically different than this:

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 8

I'm pretty confident that Frogboy has stated on these forums that at the higher difficulties the monsters do not attack the AI.
End of sweatyboatman's quote

 

So in theory, the monsters should go after the player more than the AI, which is a-ok; although in reality it only (98% of the time-ich) goes after the player.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

This has always been one of my biggest bugbears with FE.

As someone said the game is either too easy (at difficulties around challenging) or you ramp the difficulty up and then struggle simply because the AI is cheating so much. Some players obviously enjoy the challenge of beating an AI which is effectively playing a different game and has much stronger units etc but I much prefer at least the illusion of a more level playing field.

Dunno what can be done about it though. Do Stardock disagree or are they just struggling to build the AI up to the level where it provides a strong challenge without having blatant advantages. I suspect it is the latter, FE/LH is a complex game which would be hard to write AI for.

 

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 12


Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 11Ugh, I tried to find it.  But it's buried pages down in some pre-FE-release thread.

Found it!
End of Gaunathor's quote

 

Ah ok. It sounds like they are still supposed to attack the AI players at higher levels, just not as often. Pretty cool,but I wonder if it has been broken along the way and it having the effect at lower difficulty levels as well.

Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top

So I highly recommended FE to a friend, it came on sale, I told him it was worth the price, he bought it, and here's what he told me...

--------

"They’ve done a lot with the game, but I don’t know... it seems very “land grab spam”. I can’t even build up my cities, I’ll be getting 2 under a decent start and then I run into my first AI opponent who’ll have 8+. Think I’ll go back to Arcane or something else. "

---------

Interesting response, as he notes the progression from EWoM, graphics, features, etc, but it all seems to fall to the floor when he discovers the big fat elephant in the room.

I realize this was probably his first or second playthrough, but he's no noob to 4x games. I think this emphasisizes the issues with the AI and its too obvious cheat advantages. Game AI needs to cheat, as until true AI can be afforadably modelled and programmed, its the only alternative for us Hadrcore gamers. 

But what destorys the illusion of "me" against equal level opponents versus a hostile world, is when Epic Dragons armies, a supposed neutral faction whose game purpose is to obstruct city spam, is obviously allied and slewed in favour of protecting the AI factions from the player. As a game function it inheritely works to aid the AI as a whole against the player, defeating the purpose of having a hositle world verusus emerging factions - its the world and AI factions against you -- have fun. This is normally not an issue in such games unless its blatanly obvious if the lore tells you one thing, but the game works in opposite, thus destroying the illusion and the game's lore of having a hostile to all world against factions who are trying to emerge and grow into a powerful empires.

Don't get me wrong now, I'm a Stardock fan, Loved GalCiv, Sins, love FE, and hope to to love LH, but you guys have got to aim your barrel in a different direction. You've come a long way from EWoM, but you need to create a better illusion for the player. Do something to improve the faction AI against the hostile world, while providing the illusion thats its struggling like the player is. It will make a world of difference, honestly.

One example - Program the player factions that they should clear an area of hostile entities before settling a city, even if you don't bother to alter the criteria in regards to, "whats living beside that sweet spot for my next city". At least this would provide the "illusion" that its semi-conscious of that Epic Dragon Army living beside the same spot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
End of quote

Since he has the game and access to the forum why do you need to reply for him? His fingers broke? I find posts like the OP's highly suspicious as the real person trying to use a 3rd person effort to get their own point accross.

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top


I concur;  some ai improvements so the ai is better at the game would help; as would making sure the ai is at least under similar restrictions, it's quite annoying when ai gets to near ignore some effects in the game.

I wish they wouldn't be so resistant to letting other people improve the ai.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 4
Start a new game on a Large map with 6-7 opponents. Set the world difficulty to Normal or Challenging. Set all the AIs to Challenging. Play. You and your friend will probably have a much nicer time.
End of sweatyboatman's quote

I'm playing at huge with World set to Hard and AI set to Challenging. On 0.8 AI still spams outposts and cities. Even more it forces dragons to leave their lair & wander which eventually leads those dragon into my lands. Furthermore when I'm going into AI lands monsters attack me and I'm slowed, tho when AI comes to me with weaker armies they walk through mosters like there are none. For me it's main flaw of the game. I have to guard my outposts hard, while AI just spams them over whole map.

Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting jet800, reply 18



Quoting sweatyboatman,
reply 4
Start a new game on a Large map with 6-7 opponents. Set the world difficulty to Normal or Challenging. Set all the AIs to Challenging. Play. You and your friend will probably have a much nicer time.


I'm playing at huge with World set to Hard and AI set to Challenging. On 0.8 AI still spams outposts and cities. Even more it forces dragons to leave their lair & wander which eventually leads those dragon into my lands. Furthermore when I'm going into AI lands monsters attack me and I'm slowed, tho when AI comes to me with weaker armies they walk through mosters like there are none. For me it's main flaw of the game. I have to guard my outposts hard, while AI just spams them over whole map.
End of jet800's quote

The monsters not attacking the AI and attacking you are PART of the DIFFICULTY settings. THe higher the overland difficulty the more the monsters will attack you. It's by design not to wipe out the ai cities, just yours. :{P

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joeherbert48, reply 19


Quoting jet800, reply 18


Quoting sweatyboatman,
reply 4
Start a new game on a Large map with 6-7 opponents. Set the world difficulty to Normal or Challenging. Set all the AIs to Challenging. Play. You and your friend will probably have a much nicer time.


I'm playing at huge with World set to Hard and AI set to Challenging. On 0.8 AI still spams outposts and cities. Even more it forces dragons to leave their lair & wander which eventually leads those dragon into my lands. Furthermore when I'm going into AI lands monsters attack me and I'm slowed, tho when AI comes to me with weaker armies they walk through mosters like there are none. For me it's main flaw of the game. I have to guard my outposts hard, while AI just spams them over whole map.


The monsters not attacking the AI and attacking you are PART of the DIFFICULTY settings. THe higher the overland difficulty the more the monsters will attack you. It's by design not to wipe out the ai cities, just yours. :{P
End of joeherbert48's quote

 

That isn't what Wardel thinks is supposed to happen: https://forums.elementalgame.com/435073/page/1/ (read post #3)

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

hmm....i just bought the expansion recently and haven't playing FE much after the beta due to some other occupations, but in my last game my outposts or cities weren't attacked by monsters afterall o.O. i don't know if i had them guarded enough so that the monsters thought it wouldn't be worthwile.

 

the city spam of the opponents is after all extremely annoying to me, i mostly build at the beginning up to two towns (town and fortress), later on a conclave, but the ai seems to have almost twice as many cities as i have.

 

AI kingdoms interacting more with the game world is in my opinion a big factor which should be more developed in FE or LH. Afterall in a singleplayer gameworld you want to have the same rules which apply to your kingdom to affect the enemy players aswell! that sometimes the AI gets a little advantage due to programming restrictions is ok, but mostly i feel like i'm constantly battling uphill against the AI opponents. and i'm surely not new to the genre. in general i find it quiet hard to find an AI which is challenging in 4x games....one of the better in my opinion was the one from Galactic Civilization 2....therefore my hopes still lies with stardock :).

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jet800, reply 18


Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 4Start a new game on a Large map with 6-7 opponents. Set the world difficulty to Normal or Challenging. Set all the AIs to Challenging. Play. You and your friend will probably have a much nicer time.

I'm playing at huge with World set to Hard and AI set to Challenging. On 0.8 AI still spams outposts and cities. Even more it forces dragons to leave their lair & wander which eventually leads those dragon into my lands. Furthermore when I'm going into AI lands monsters attack me and I'm slowed, tho when AI comes to me with weaker armies they walk through mosters like there are none. For me it's main flaw of the game. I have to guard my outposts hard, while AI just spams them over whole map.
End of jet800's quote

This is the only thing i really find annoying, It irks me to no end. I don't care if they AI struggles with the monsters or not, but turning them into roaming armies for the AI is irritating. I mean lets think about the tables turned, what if i could throw an outpost down next to a dragon and have it wonder into the AI's control zones and cause havoc or even destroy one of there cities would that be ok? of course not.

I mean either make the AI fight them and struggle like we do or auto-kill them so that the AI doesn't have free deadly armies roaming around that they didn't have to build and don't have to pay for.