[suggestion] global enchantments, strategic cast times, interrupts and dispells... And more

There are a few global spells in the game, there's the one that gives all your trained units +1 level and the create dark portal one that constantly spawns demons or whatever. More would be cool though.

I think global magic is what is standing in the way of FE series to be truly great. But this won't be fixed in LH. 

I find it interesting that so many users in so many different threads are asking for features from MOM.  It is interesting because I know an editor at GI and he told me that way back when Elemental was in early development, we're talking pre-beta, the Elemental devs told GI that they wanted to make MOM 2 essentially, but they had issues getting the IP for MOM, so they created the Elemental IP.

Now that we are in iteration 3 of Elemental with LH, there are still so many core mechanics from MOM that still don't exist - in particular the over the top powerful magic.  The back story in the Elemental universe tells us that magic is supposed to be the focal point, but I've had more success with brute force super troops than trying to use magic as my main battle tactic.

So yes, I would like to see more Strategic magic overall - particularly huge multi-turn summons.  Also there should be more essence on the maps.

BTW, the original idea for the Sovereigns was that they were supposed to be OP by nature with a player choice to focus on one-man-army or commander/administrator types - kinda like the Warrior/Mage or Commander heroes in Eador.

From what I have seen, there has been a slow evolution from the Elemental WOM-> FE ->FE:LH , that makes it closer and closer to MOM. Eg the whole fame mechanic to get Champions is right out of MOM. 

I think the number of people asking for MOM mechanics is actually overstated. There aren't really that many people who want this game to be similar to MOM. Many die hard fans want the game to go its own way, there was a poll on this recently I think., 

There are many things about elemental I like better than mom.  Dynamic troop creation, mods ability, skills progression, city levels, and all sorts of other unique things.  There are also mom aspects I don't want anywhere near elemental.  These things could be used to balance some things (like magic) and add interesting choices to character and faction progression.  

Granted, but if those things existed in MoM, we'd still be playing that game instead of FE:LH.

I think MoM had a game that was VERY well thought out...for the theory of it anyways...and just fell short in the technology. Now, SD has the chance at pushing for that win. As already mentioned, the fame mechanic is right out of MoM....other things are too. Not everything has to be for FE:LH is be the spiritual successor, but the more that is, I believe the more lasting love the game will get.

ps. Please give pedestrians to 32-bit users.

As I stated earlier, MOM 2, not MOM.  There are plenty of IPs which alter game mechanics each rev of the game, yet keep the core experience the same.  As a matter of fact, games that don't alter mechanics usually fail.  It is only the games that successfully alter the mechanics that get played for years and years.  I would expect LH to be better than MOM.  At this point I don't think LH is the spiritual successor to anything.  It is definitely its own IP.

However, I would like to see a dev shop make a game that uses MOM's core experience and deliver a well balanced modern game.  (MOM having horrible balance issues was its downfall, but the near infinite paths through the game is what gives it its legs.)

I do not think the lack of balance was the issue.  I think it was the lack of ai or multi player.  

But all that said, I would rather this thread not turn into a MOM discussion.  We have LOADS of those.  I really would like to leave this thread discussing these suggestions as they pertain to lh.  

I was really expecting more bite with this post, but perhaps I'm in the minority with wanting these things?

If nothing else I thought there would be more support for the request to make it easier to end unit enchantments.   Is there a way to do this that I"m not aware of?

A magic-sucking elemental summons that sucks the base mana cost off a unit and adds hit points to itself would be a fun beast.

A more strategic level battle of wizardry vs. tactical brute force would be a fun addition to the game, I totally agree, Emmagine.

Absolutely this one.  Got to get this included soon.

I agree with the suggestions dealing with Magic. Can we see these changes happen with legendary heroes? I doubt it but it would be nice if we had a small expansion that just dealt with Magic. Hey you could even call it Legendary Enchantments rofl....

Have it bring in the global enchantments with strategic casting duels and item enchantment system closer to MOM's or Age of wonders. Throw in a few more classical fantasy npc's and you have a winner.

Probably. Cos these are MOM like features and MOM fans are in the minority

Seriously, my impression from reading forum threads is more players here are interested in "balance" and the AI challenge more than in the fun factor (except that balance and AI challenge is fun). Hence you see lots of discussions on champion skill trees , which *IS* important but most are ok with the magic side even though it's a bit bland mostly with a couple of fun spells.

The things the OP mentions are definitely fun and adds lots of favour, essentially, the spells asked for, makes it into a real "War on magic", where opponents can counterspell, dispell and other mantipulate other magic, some call this "meta-magic". The problem here is the average Elemental player will say "but the AI can't handle this" or "but it's going to be so unbalanced... cos of ..."

That essentially is the difference in philosophy between MOM and Elemental. In MOM, the main criteria in ending something in was "is it fun? is it cool?", hence you get flying units, invisible units, ability to "Steal" opposing units, craft items, various ways to counter/dispel/block etc spells, 

The AI can't handle all this, 

Um, not from what I've been reading...

Again, I've read a lot of complaints about the lackluster magic.  The champion trees are a major problem as well.

Well, with game titles like Elemental : War of Magic and Fallen Enchantress : Legendary Heroes I guess there are a lot of us gamers expecting dazzling magic and super-buff heroes.

And what's wrong with wanting our fantasy games to be fun?

Well, while it's true it take more time to develop a decent AI the more game concepts you throw at it there are time worn "AI cheats" like giving them X free turns to start the game or X% production and research bonuses to compensate.  The point is that games need to be FUN or they will not succeed.

I actually believe the AI can be written to handle many of these things well.  

I haven't even begun to look into the AI yet, so the below listed xml is 100% psudocode. (AKA DO NOT USE THE CODE BELOW, I MADE UP ALL THE VARIABLES)

If the code for the AI doesn't already let us do something like the following, it absolutely needs to be in game.

<Combo Intervention>

      <NastynessLevel>5</NastynessLevel>

     <WatchForValue1>

         <Enchantment>Flight</Enchantment>

     </WachForValue1>

     <WatchForValue2>

         <Ability>AttackRanged</Ability>

     </WatchForValue2>

      <Action1>RangedAttack</Action1>

       <Action2 ~~~~~7>Various Dispells</Action2~~~~~7>

        <Action8>FlightSpell</Action8>

         <Action9>EscapeScroll</Action9>

</Combo Intervention>

Frogboy Did an amazing job with the AI by the end of galciv2 and all it's expansions.   I really expect we will get the same for this game before it's over.

Do you mean like "Ineluctable Vision" - Reveals the entire map as long as the mana upkeep is paid.
Or more like "Shadow World" - Opens a rift into the shadow plane and spawns demons. I know at some point somebody set this up to spawn them ALL over the world at the same time...

Like the "Spell of Making" that takes 10 turns to cast on the strategic map?

They have an interrupt spell called "spell leech" - Disrupts persons casting in tatical and gives you 40 mana if you succeed, "counterspell" - Disrupts the person casting the spell (no bonuses beyond that), "feedback" - Disrupts the person casting the spell and damages them with fire.

They have one called "dispel enchantment" - removes enemy enchantment from city.

All of these 4 things you mentioned are great to suggest, but if you give specifics somebody may take the time to mod them into the game, or possible actually get put into the game. Much of what you want is really not difficult to put in the game the idea is though what are you expecting.

We do have flying units, and the ability to steal opposing units and various way to counter / dispel/ block spells. It's not hard to add things in the game that you want, like invisible units. If you ignore what the AI can't do and just want it in the game, then that removes a huge requirement of trying to get the game to work with the AI...This is why I made units in FE that summon creatures for free. I tried to make the AI use them, but meh don't know if it worked. But in either case you had mages that summoned a specific elemental and it was a trait that forced you to only choose 1 summon and not multiple summons for that unit.

A lot of my mods were just to see if I could do it in FE and I found that I could do quite a bit with what was there. I just didn't have the 3d modeling skills to make truly amazing works like heavenfall. But for coding it doesn't take much to add spells and the like into the game, or buildings for that matter. Most of the ideas for my mods was in effect a result of discussions from the board of what people wanted to see or have in the game. So I put it in the game, like the snaking and bridge mod.

I would much prefer if people would say exactly the spell and what you want it to do down so it can be made into the game, if it is possible. Or try to add it to the game yourself.

I should be more specific with the global spells.   I would like a UI page that displays all this.   Shows what global spells are in effect.   I believe the lack of cast time is the main reason magic feels chincy in this game.   Not having a UI to see and manage all this is cumbersome.  I'll be checking out the spells you mentioned,  I've never come across the endless night one.

As far as interrupts,  If global cast times for spells are implemented, it would then be nice to see strategic map interrupts.   The ones in the tactical battles give no indication on how to code that, or if it is even possible.   (Is it possible to interrupt the spell of mastery?)

 

To interrupt the spell of mastery is to kill the person casting the spell. Interrupts on the strategic level will have to be a very high mana cost somwhere along the lines of 200+ mana. Reasons for the global spells with no casting time, it shouldn't take more than a season to cast something, but meh.

It's not hard to add these things in though. The UI to see enchantments is in the govern tab.

Why can't we click an enchantment off of a unit like we can out of a city?  Am I the only one that expected it to be there and didn't know where else to look? I know I can be a bit (or a lot) slow sometimes, but I really had no idea where else to look.  And yes, interrupts should have a very high mana cost, or at least a mana cost that varries based off the casting cost of the target spell.

I am also struggling to remove enchantments from my units.

I favor the concept of giving strategic spells a casting timer, which allows counter spells and resistance etc.

Yeah, the govern tab, under ledger, under the enchantment section is tediuos to get to but it's there to dispel enchantments. I would suggest that a remake of the dispel area because it is rather difficult to know which militia has which enchantment. Either a new way of removing an enchantment or a more organized system to dispel the enchantment than when it was first cast (although that is good). It would be nice to know which unit has which spel. A lot of times i will cast regen on a group of 3 of the same units, 2 of the units are fully healed and so I want to remove the enchantment. I don't remember which order I cast the spell and I don't really want to rename the troops to find it in the enchantment dialogue, to know which one to remove it from.

Maybe do it under a party grouping, so you can see the stack and what enchantments are on the stack and the order of the units is set to translate to a the fixed order of the unit ordering on the map.

123
456
789

and the enchantment dispel is set to order the units by group in that order specified above. Just a thought.

When you bring up the stats for the unit, the current enchantments, equipments, and traits are all listed.  Just make it so we can right click on those to remove them.

Unless they changed it in LH, you can get there immediately by simply clicking on the Mana-counter in the Resource-bar.

Still, I agree that it would be better, if you could remove enchantments by just clicking on them in the unit-details.

I know modders are very proud of their mods and I respect the amount of effort put into it. But the whole "download a mod and this solves your problem/negates your point" argument is silly when people comment about the game.

The Elemental line of games just isn't very fun, at least if you define Fun the way MOM does it. Mods may or may not address it (I am leaning towards maybe), but we judge games by the base game not the mods. This isn't a knock on modders by the way, just wondering why modders are defending SD. 

Even if you managed to duplicate say MOM spells 100% with your mod that's your success not SD's, it still doesn't negate my point about the direction of Elemental by SD.

EDIT : Compare to say Worlds of Magic, where it is obvious magic is the focus.....