Yet more henchmen abuse

I've just managed to play a whole game without building any other units, any research buildings or any gildar generating buildings (and avoided having to research the associated techs). 

Just mass produce henchmen and level them up as governors and the unrest bonuses, 3 gildar and 3 research is enough to keep your army of henchmen going.

I quite liked having scholars who leveled up lore, and administrators who leveled admin and merchants who brought in more coin, but all available to just one faction and in just one unit/tech is total overkill. 

It did get me to thinking that instead of totally nerfing henchmen as such it may be better to give them a much cut down set of level ups and maybe restrict paths/traits to races e.g. Tarth- assassins, Capita - Merchants + Admin, Men - Warriors, Gilder - Defenders. (Not thought exactly how that would work bu you can see the idea).

 

19,505 views 11 replies
Reply #1 Top

I believe the fundamental is original and fun, i.e you can have them escort champions (henchmen!) and they don't eat on the champion XP. Problem is that currently they are just too OP because they can do everything and do it well. 

 

You don't want them to be the alpha and omega, they must fill a role (provide some abilities to an army) but regular units should still keep a role (tougher and strike harder when undamaged) whereas the henchmen can provide a few abilities to the group. Currently the ideal composition is 1 champion + as many henchmen you can find. Ideally I believe it should be 1 champion, a few henchmen for army-support abilities, and troops. 

Plus, and I know I'll be in minority here, I believe they should level up slowly, perhaps a -50% penalty on XP can help. Also, as you say, their choice of abilities must be reviewed in detail, any stacking effect should be evaluated.

 

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Nibelung44, reply 1
...they can do everything and do it well. 

I wish this were true.  In fact, when it comes to magic, henchmen can never advance past the 'Adept' stage.  They can never become 'full' mages.

I created a henchman called 'Surveyor' with 'Earth magic' that I was planning to create roads and of course raise/lower land.  It turns out that he could never advance in earth magic far enough to become an 'Earth Mage' which is required to raise/lower land.  I wish they could rise to Earth Mage - even if it cost a lot.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Ambermonk, reply 2
I wish this were true.  In fact, when it comes to magic, henchmen can never advance past the 'Adept' stage.  They can never become 'full' mages.

If you have Pariden in your game, you can buy Spellbooks from them, as long as they have researched the tech and you are not at war.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting Gaunathor, reply 3



Quoting Ambermonk,
reply 2
I wish this were true.  In fact, when it comes to magic, henchmen can never advance past the 'Adept' stage.  They can never become 'full' mages.


If you have Pariden in your game, you can buy Spellbooks from them, as long as they have researched the tech and you are not at war.

Thanks.  Good to know, but I still would like to be able to train someone who could be an 'Earth Mage.'

Reply #5 Top

I like Henchmen too though they can be a bit OP.  Perhaps give them permadeath like the Sions

Reply #6 Top

or a 1 influence upkeep, should prevent the stack of 1 champion + 8 henchmen, all with shieldwall and experience bonus

Reply #7 Top

or a 1 influence upkeep

That sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

Reply #8 Top


Henchmen should definately have permadeath.

I stopped playing Altar because of how unfun it was to abuse henchmen...

 

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Nibelung44, reply 1
regular units should still keep a role (tougher and strike harder when undamaged)

*This is still the case, by far. Champions are not even close to being able to put out the same amount of (non-spell) damage or take as many hits as a well equipped and leveled group of trained units, even with a 9x shieldwall. I mean it's seriously not close, we are talking 50-70 damage for a good champion vs 300+ for 7s of trained units right out the gate, and with champion armor they are getting like +15-30 health per level.

The only thing I would suggest is not allowing henchmen/sions to pick governor traits. That does seem a bit abusable. I know how easy a game can be with 4 merchant champions near your start.

 

*I'm assuming henchmen are just champions without (decent) spells, I haven't played Altar.

Reply #10 Top

Also if you want to equip your "real" champion, another henchman, or your sovereign with a set of newly researched armor or weapon it is also cheaper to just train up a henchman with the armor on.  You can then trade the armor to whoever you want or even sell them.  If you were to buy the pieces from your shop it would cost a ton of gildar, but production is easier to come by.  I also noticed after you trade the armor off the henchman sometimes keeps his defense rating until you equip something else (bug).  The henchman's mount and accessories are not removable but you can equip 4 more accessories on top of what it was created with (bug?).

 

I do like the concept of henchman a lot, but it seems like they are highly abusable and probably over the top in their current incarnation.   Shieldwall stacking gets out of hand.  I do not think that henchmen should ever be able to buy spellbooks and should be stuck with adept skills.  Also note that with the changes to pioneers costing population, governors on demand are even more powerful.

 

 Your sovereign should really be the star of your heroes, and your champions should be special too.  Henchmen should be just that, and not be that uber.

 

Regular trained units can really be the strongest things out to anything without overpower or the blizzard spell.  The issue is that it takes really late game to make them that effective, but champions/henchmen can reach effective armor/attack/health levels without as much tech since you can outfit them with found items.

 

PS: Pariden should be renamed to "book beyotches."

Reply #11 Top

Henchmen should be capped at the number of champions you have.