What FE could learn from WoM

from Elemental Forums

Fallen Enchantress is a fun game, but I feel like it lost too much "character" when it was overhauled from WoM.  In particular, I really miss the big maps, ships, and dynasties.  They made the world feel more alive and real.  Here's a few favorites:

Population mattered during wars

Deciding how many units to build in a city for my army was a real factor, your population was reduced and wars actually devastated your people.  They couldn't go on for very long until you simply ran out of people to fight with.  I love games that factor population into army size.

Sea travel

In WoM you could set sail, find lost islands and back door routes to defeat your enemies with.  Fantasy isn't complete without being able to take to the seas.  I didn't care that the AI couldn't use it, that I could was good enough.

Dynasties

This is a big one.  In my opinion, an entire dimension of the game was removed when Dynasties were taken out.  Champions in WoM were far more than just chess pieces to boost your army with - they had lives of their own, they were born and died, married and had children.  Losing a spouse in a battle was a big deal and the game told a story through these family lines.  Marrying off a family member to another faction was awesome and reminded me of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Large Maps

Maps in WoM were enormous, they would last you months and months of play time.  You really felt like you were traveling over a giant continent.  In FE, I feel like it's more of an RTS with turns, and small "skirmish" maps, not epic worlds to explore.

Permadeath

Heroes in WoM could die.  Death meant something.  In FE, losing a fight just means getting a cheesy scar condition.

Interesting/Strategic cities

In WoM, cities could be planned and arranged to look just how you wanted it, and they could also be used as strategic choke points wherever you wanted on the map.  They could be placed so enemies could not move past them without fighting, and they didn't need silly designated areas to be built.

Multiplayer

Yes, multiplayer in WoM wasn't the greatest, but it was there and it was fun.  

 

Fallen Enchantress is a tighter, more focused game.  But we lost quite a bit of the theme from WoM that made things interesting.  Some may argue that if it doesn't have a real, quantifiable effect on the game, then we don't need it.  I disagree. The intangibles give a game character, like Dynasties and Ships.  WoM was both a kingdom simulator and a war game, but I feel like FE is just a war game.  A lot of things have been dumbed down from WoM, there is less customization and a little too much "default" going on.

If we could see just half of the things above re-implemented in Fallen enchantress, I think I'd be far happier with it.  Here's hoping that Stardock changes focus a little bit now that FE has been released.  The game balance and focus has been done well, now we need some more of the goodies put back in.

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Most of these, besides permadeath and possibly population and wars, are fairly irrelevant to the game. Dynasties even though I really liked the idea never really added anything to the game. City snaking was a huge problem back in the beta, I am guessing you weren't around for that. Sea travel isn't important. There really is no reason to travel across the sea, instead flying would be a better idea. 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I want sea travel.  I would like dynasties.  I am glad the snaking is gone, and I prefer injuries to permadeath, as it hurts the ai too much.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Emperor_Nero, reply 1
Most of these, besides permadeath and possibly population and wars, are fairly irrelevant to the game. Dynasties even though I really liked the idea never really added anything to the game. City snaking was a huge problem back in the beta, I am guessing you weren't around for that. Sea travel isn't important. There really is no reason to travel across the sea, instead flying would be a better idea. 

It's funny that I knew this response would come up and made a point to rebut it, yet people still say it.  

 

Totally.  Missed.  The.  Point.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top


Agreed they should have never gotten rid of Dynasties or Permadeath, in fact they should have fleshed these 2 aspects out.

 

1st - Dynasties could have been fleshed out to be more like Medieval Total War 2, where you married had kids, and your kids married and had kids. And when your leader died of old age or in battle you selected a successor to keep on playing your faction. Personally I would have preferred this over immortal sovereigns. Also dying of old age would be cool also because it would open up the possibility for Death mages to become a Lich.

 

2nd - It would be nice if they had some sort of difficulty slider for heroes and sovereigns, where easy mode would play like it is now. Hard mode on the other hand would have dying heroes and a small chance for your sovereign to die in battle or dying of old age.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 2
I want sea travel.  I would like dynasties.  I am glad the snaking is gone, and I prefer injuries to permadeath, as it hurts the ai too much.

Like the other features above, simply removing building placement was unnecessary.  Strategic city placement was one of the main draw points to WoM in the beginning.  Being able to block off a river crossing with a well-positioned city was cool.  Think of Osgiliath or Cirith Ungol in LotR where the cities were placed as a defense at choke points.  You can't really do that in FE anymore unless you get lucky and happen to get a settle-point near a choke point.

Perhaps part of the city could have been passable like tons of housing to prevent snaking.  But, like dynasties and ships, simply removing it was a dumb idea.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Permadeath works in tandem with Dynasties.  Losing a champion is no longer a big deal if you have a spouse or child successor to take his or her place.  The game world becomes more rich if there is real loss and real people replacing one another.  A dramatic story is created when people die.  Shakespeare  became the greatest English writer of all time because his stories were tragic, not because they always ended happily.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I would love to see those in Fallen Enchantress.  Everything the OP listed sounds like fun, and I hope the developers bring some of them in the game via extension packs, etc...

BUT.

I am damn glad that Stardock chose not to work on them until release.  We have enough bugs as it is.  This game has to fight for survival after the Elemental debacle. Once it gets a community these things will be welcome.

Honestly, I am still worried that Fallen Enchantress will not take off.  The reviews are damning it with faint praise.  I do not see enthusiastic reviews.  Plenty of positive ones, but no enthusiastic ones. :(

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

In WoM, cities could be planned and arranged to look just how you wanted it, and they could also be used as strategic choke points wherever you wanted on the map. They could be placed so enemies could not move past them without fighting, and they didn't need silly designated areas to be built.

 

Ehm? It's in the game. Options => Advanced Options => Manual Improvement Placement

Works like a charm and i wouldn't like to play FE without it. :-D 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GaelicVigil, reply 6

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 2I want sea travel.  I would like dynasties.  I am glad the snaking is gone, and I prefer injuries to permadeath, as it hurts the ai too much.

Like the other features above, simply removing building placement was unnecessary.  Strategic city placement was one of the main draw points to WoM in the beginning.  Being able to block off a river crossing with a well-positioned city was cool.  Think of Osgiliath or Cirith Ungol in LotR where the cities were placed as a defense at choke points.  You can't really do that in FE anymore unless you get lucky and happen to get a settle-point near a choke point.

Perhaps part of the city could have been passable like tons of housing to prevent snaking.  But, like dynasties and ships, simply removing it was a dumb idea.

FYI, manual building placement is still here, it is just not default. Look in options, then click the advanced options button. You can't snake as much as the early betas, but you can a bit.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Xadie, reply 9

In WoM, cities could be planned and arranged to look just how you wanted it, and they could also be used as strategic choke points wherever you wanted on the map. They could be placed so enemies could not move past them without fighting, and they didn't need silly designated areas to be built.

 

Ehm? It's in the game. Options => Advanced Options => Manual Improvement Placement

Works like a charm and i wouldn't like to play FE without it.  

Really?  I had no idea you could turn off the pre-positioned settlement build spots on the map.

:|

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Leo, reply 10

Quoting GaelicVigil, reply 6
Quoting Lord Xia, reply 2I want sea travel.  I would like dynasties.  I am glad the snaking is gone, and I prefer injuries to permadeath, as it hurts the ai too much.

Like the other features above, simply removing building placement was unnecessary.  Strategic city placement was one of the main draw points to WoM in the beginning.  Being able to block off a river crossing with a well-positioned city was cool.  Think of Osgiliath or Cirith Ungol in LotR where the cities were placed as a defense at choke points.  You can't really do that in FE anymore unless you get lucky and happen to get a settle-point near a choke point.

Perhaps part of the city could have been passable like tons of housing to prevent snaking.  But, like dynasties and ships, simply removing it was a dumb idea.

FYI, manual building placement is still here, it is just not default. Look in options, then click the advanced options button. You can't snake as much as the early betas, but you can a bit.

Wait, Lord Xia didn't know about this?

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I did.  You can snake them, but you can't snake them to rivers or forest to gain that bonus.  

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

No, Lord Xia knows about this, but does not like it, has successfully lobbied to cripple snaking, and does not use it. He and I do not see eye to to eye on this one. 

Stop trying to turn everything into a fight. Seriously

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Lord, reply 13
I did.  You can snake them, but you can't snake them to rivers or forest to gain that bonus.  

Right...nice save.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tuidjy, reply 14
No, Lord Xia knows about this, but does not like it, has successfully lobbied to cripple snaking, and does not use it. He and I do not see eye to to eye on this one. 

Stop trying to turn everything into a fight. Seriously

Just keeping people honest here.  When someone doesn't know what they're talking about, I'm going to point it out.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

The primary lesson that was learned FROM WoM was that haphazardly throwing in features that do not enhance gameplay will seriously detract from gameplay, and that no amount of make believe story time in the imagination of (most) players will make up for this Deficit.

Thank you FE teaming for throwing away dung systems such as dynasties.

 

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

I'll admit when I am wrong, I learn new stuff about the game all the time.  I admit when I am wrong all the time, I don't claim to be all knowing, and I don't get defensive when someone does point out something I have been wrong about.  

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

I think FE is a good game, but WoM is still a little better in my mind for these reasons above.  Maybe that's because I'm more of a thematic gamer than others.

FE can be perfect though, if we had a few of these options put back in.  I remember Wardell stating that they would be added eventually back in, hope we can get that.  I understand why they were put on the back burner, though, for this release.  You gotta get your reputation back with reviewers, and that means a tight, well-balanced game comes before the peripheral.

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tuidjy, reply 8

Honestly, I am still worried that Fallen Enchantress will not take off.  The reviews are damning it with faint praise.  I do not see enthusiastic reviews.  Plenty of positive ones, but no enthusiastic ones.

The reception so far is similar to the results of the Beta Polls ("Fair" or "Good" were the most voted). Frankly, the game never attained an "awesome" status for the majority of beta players. It would have been unrealistic to hope for more enthusiasm once "out in the wild" (even though I still expected slightly better results, thanx to positive first impressions the game can give). When all is said and done, one thing that comes out of the WoM + FE experience is that a niche target audience can give a really dependable feedback (I'm no talking about me, I mostly whined).

Hope sales are going well anyway - and it's entirely possible they are, word of mouth should be good and there's no much competition in this genre. ;)

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes, I voted "Good" as well.  This game is close to great, but it needs work.  Just clearing all the bugs that make the early game a frustrating experience for new players would do SO much for the word of mouth.

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GaelicVigil, reply 15

Quoting Lord Xia, reply 13I did.  You can snake them, but you can't snake them to rivers or forest to gain that bonus.  

Right...nice save.

 

He's been complaining about the no-snaking thing for some time, so he has known manual placement exists. 

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sythion, reply 17
The primary lesson that was learned FROM WoM was that haphazardly throwing in features that do not enhance gameplay will seriously detract from gameplay, and that no amount of make believe story time in the imagination of (most) players will make up for this Deficit.

Thank you FE teaming for throwing away dung systems such as dynasties.

 

 

I agree with this. WoM had the problem of trying to be everything and failing at it all. FE doesn't have that problem because they took out things that just didn't add to the game as a whole. Sure I love CK and I love building dynasties, but we don't need a mini-CK in FE because it just doesn't add anything. A game has to be a sum of it's parts and when you have parts that doesn't work towards the sum then they're not needed. I am not saying I wouldn't have liked to build dynasties in FE because that would have added another cool RPG element but it just isn't needed - I mean this game is a strategy game with RPG elements not an RPG with strategy elements.

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Dynasties

This is a big one.  In my opinion, an entire dimension of the game was removed when Dynasties were taken out.  Champions in WoM were far more than just chess pieces to boost your army with - they had lives of their own, they were born and died, married and had children.  Losing a spouse in a battle was a big deal and the game told a story through these family lines.  Marrying off a family member to another faction was awesome and reminded me of A Song of Ice and Fire.

Large Maps

Maps in WoM were enormous, they would last you months and months of play time.  You really felt like you were traveling over a giant continent.  In FE, I feel like it's more of an RTS with turns, and small "skirmish" maps, not epic worlds to explore.

 

I absolutely agree about Dynasties.  They were something that really gave Elemental character and made it unique.  

 

Do we know for sure that the maps are smaller?  How do they compare? (large in WoM vs. large in FE).