The Big Ass Thread of QoT Balance

(1) No. Reason: BS has other specific advantages you are (deliberately) neglecting. In a nutshell, it's (1) an instant (2) buff over time. Heal does not stay with you and can be interrupted.

(2) Adjust mana cost as to reflect BR's cost. That is all.

(3)-(5) Tend to agree much more here. I'll think of more specific suggestions.

Bramble shield

Your suggestion for mana/protection looks fine to me. But the changes are small, so it doesn't look crucial for balance.

But, why not?

Spike Wave

Increasing the damage seems to be the best option to me. Late game mana problems are not such a problem (or am I mistaken concerning QoT?). So to get the right damage for the right costs would be nice.

What do you mean with "Restore the old Snare strength"? Let it scale 20/25/30? 

Uproot

To make it more mana wise sounds nice of course. But the comparison with Rooks ST is difficult because Rook is "stunned" while using that skill and easily interrupted.

But I'm not sure if only reducing it's mana cost will help that skill to get a breakthrough, but it seems to be worth to test it.

"When coming up with an effect, as suspension of disbelief, roots do extract mineral nutrients."

Makes me think of an effect that QoT gets an increased gold income for the effect duration of Uproot, maybe related on the damage it does?

More thinks later, have no more time yet.

When you install demigod, look at the skills before patching.

-I: 30%
-II: 40%
-III: 50%

This is from beta when people were crazy and said QoT is over powered (they said the same thing about Reg too)

This why I suggested any new and awesome special affect work like wings of the seraphim. Any damage stops the effect (not the uproot damage though)

I see. May be ok as a counter to J-Threads lategame but 30% at Lvl 5 is really hard, isn't it?

I'm not sure about that, though. Can't tell by numbers if it would be too game breaking.

I wouldn't go for a too great effect because the ones you want to play with also have to accept it, if it's not just for funny single playing. Sure Uproot needs some balance to find it worth investing skillpoints into it, but this should be done carefully, I think. And you already pointed out that Bramble Shield coulb be abused for the effect to last on while damage is taken.

I would leave it with a effect that just works for the duration and is not to awesome.

If those are the original snare numbers, they may very well have been correct.  That also doesn't mean those characters didn't get over-nerfed-- they obviously did, at least in some ways-- but restoring a snare to that level would be crazy.  Reg's 30% doesn't compare, because he has no direct control over when it's applied.

That said:

1) Your shield suggestions seem reasonable enough considering that absorption isn't affected by either armor or damage reduction, making it somewhat worse than healing at higher levels (even though it can be applied prophylactically).

2) I agree that SW is generally worse than BR, but doubling the snare amount isn't the solution.

There are some oddities between levels with SW, one of which is that level I and II have a 10s cooldown (compared to 15 at all levels for BR), where level III has a 15s cooldown like all levels of BR.  That makes no sense considering that level III sees a fairly even increase in mana cost and damage, and is not nearly as much of an improvement over II as II is over I.  Level III should have the same 10-second cooldown, at the very least.
Additionally, while the activation range of the ability increases by level, this has absolutely no effect, since the wave itself travels the same distance at all levels.  This is likely why all levels of BR have the same range, and I don't really see a reason to keep the activation range for I and II lower.

Aside from that, it should probably have either a small mana cost reduction or a small snare increase, but not both.  The mana cost isn't terribly bad for the damage output, considering that it has a decent snare and can hit an entire lane.  Reducing the mana cost by ~50/level would go better with the faster cooldown.

3) Uproot will be mediocre compared to Ground Spikes no matter what you do.  To boost this skill, it needs some kind of totally unique secondary effect (other than more area damage, which GS is also better at), or negative armor would need to be removed from the game to keep GS from being too effective against structures.

Edit: I suppose you could prevent the armor debuff on GS from affecting structures just by using a category restriction.

4) Related to 3 - if Uproot were decent, and Compost's bonus to Uproot affected whatever secondary thing Uproot did, Compost would be more worthwhile.  The damage boost to Uproot is already not bad, nor is the damage boost to Shamblers.  You can't directly balance Compost against Soul Power, because both skills do two totally different things (SP boosts Oak's damage, not minion damage) and Compost has two effects.

5) Perhaps you should post numbers per-point of Morale with some common early-game idol / shambler combinations, rather than just all IV.  While generally you don't want to get Morale unless you're doing a full minion build + idols, it's still not an entirely fair comparison.  It's not unusual to have 4 shamblers and only a priest idol halfway through the game, which makes Entourage a decent choice already.

I agree that the skill needs a boost, but I'm not so sure about an attack speed buff.

Entourage

If you are having all minions up, a point in morale should be better than a point of Entourage. But if you're starting your game and take BotF and monks at the start  and are planning to skill shamblers for example, it would be nice to have Entourage powerful enough to be worth investing points in rather than morale.

Heya Miri,

1) Don't forget Heal has debuff removal too.

2) There is this unused item called Saam-El's cloak I would also suggest that a skilled Regulus can control when you are hit with shrapnel mines, though clearly not with the ease of Spike Wave.

3) 2 things have come to mind since I posed this, and I will share them now.

3a) a 2% damage to gold income effect, so 1 gold per uproot tick at level 1 (500 damage), up to a potential of 6.4 per tick with full powered compost and uproot IV (3200 damage). Admittedly this is kind of a weird mechanic, having roots extract precious metals from towers.

3b) 50% damage point inflicted returned as mana. Although the explanation for this affect will be kind of weird, there is a sort of precedence for some DG achieving a power @15 another DG gets through 1-10 (Yetis AoE vs Shamblers and now Energizer @15 on Rook vs "mana extraction" on QoT through 1-10)

This actually makes more points in compost desirable, because you get more mana back.

eg: 1 point of uproot = 250 mana returned on a 450 mana costing skill
1 point of uproot and max compost = 850 mana returned on the same 450 mana costing skill

Max: 4 points of uproot and maximum compost = 1600 mana returned on a 900 mana costing skill

4) Agreed, Oak's auto attack is not as significant in demigod on demigod action, but it is attached to divine justice. More damage on an auto-attack to kill creeps is highly desirable.

5) I guess I show maximum comparison, because idols do not cost skill points, and increase significantly in both damage and attack rate as you spend more gold. Idols are also highly desirable because of Ground Spikes, so QoT should more priority on idols compared to other generals.

Here is the best case scenario for Shamblers using only ranged units (I say this, because I believe every QoT should be using Minotaur 1 to distract tower fire, and those would add additional DPS to the morale choice, further empowering morale over entourage)

However
Priest 1 = 48 damage @ 0.48 ea = 46 DPS total
Archer 1 = 30 damage @ 0.5 ea = 30 DPS total
Shambler 1 = 30 damage @ 0.5 ea = 30 DPS total

Scenario 1- Morale 1 + Priest 1 + Archer 1 + Shambler 1
With morale 1
Priest = 52 damage @ 0.4896 ea = 50.9 DPS total
Archer 1 = 34 damage @ 0.51 ea = 34.7 DPS total
Shambler 1 = 34 damage @ 0.51 ea = 35.7 DPS total

Scenario 2- Entourage 1 + Priest 1 + Archer 1 + Shambler 1
Entourage (as it is now)
Shambler 1 = 36 damage @ 0.5 ea

Scenario 3- New Entourage + Priest 1 + archer 1 + Shambler 1
Entourage (as suggested)
Shambler 1 = 41 damage @ 0.525 ea = 43 DPS total

So totals
Scenario 1 = 50.9 + 34.7 + 34.7 = 121.3 DPS

Scenario 2 = 46 + 30 + 36 = 112 DPS

Scenario 3 = 46 + 30 + 43 = 119 DPS

Hopefully this shows how entourage would roughly scale. eg: When you spend 3 points on entourage, your shamblers will scale up in power with the 5% attack speed addition, so your shamblers + idols are doing the same as if you had put III points in morale.

So this decision is AoE vs DPS and healthier shamblers vs less health idols based on only 3 skill points spent.

eg: If you put 4 points in morale your shamblers could never reach this DPS potential on a point per point comparison when also considering idols, each point of morale with minion idols scales higher in DPS than a point in Entourage.

i think her skin needs a balance! more flesh, more distraction, more ownage!

When QoT transform into open mode, all units are interrupted due to nakedness! (especially Sedna, she is so Lez!)

I don't don't if Saam-El's cloak is really an option. Even if you're slowed down only 15% at maximum, that is still enough for not to escape if the others are already near to you. Sure, enemies farther away can't get to you that fast but still, that are special situations that should be avoided anyway. So Swift Anklet would be the better choice because you're just faster all the time.

May the snare % could be up a bit. But I would suggest to balance SW over mana cost or damage.

What about violent siege? All that damage would count into it too?

I would just fix the amount of gold on the skill level of uproot. When you use uproot your income is increased for that duration. Uproot 1 = 1 gold, 2 = 2g, 3 = 3g, 4 = 5g (I'm not sure about the numbers but it would be nice if the end of the skill line hast the most benefits, that it is worth getting Uproot 4 as an alternative to other skill lines)

I would suggest to fix the percentage of mana got back on the level of uproot, so that it is not like 1 point into it and then feel like a BotS TB with lower cooldown and damaging towers as a side affect.

A simple suggestion: Uproot 1 - 10% of damage, 2 - 20%, 3 -30%, 4 - 40% of mana gained for damaging structure. Here violent siege has to be regarded to.

About 3a and 3b:

These are no more mere balance changes but skill changes. I'm not sure if this is really a good way to balance a skill. But I like both ideas though.

That is mostly the change already done in Crazytown 1.4 and I think it's ok don't know if the damage of 11 is necessary (10 just looks nicer ^^ and they get a little armor bonus there) but I would just leave that. 10 or 11, both wouldn't bother me.

Next question for anyone who is interested in providing opinion.

Is it possible to make uproot OP?

I did the following

0 cast, 0 follow through

Range: 20,25,25,30
Refresh: 15,10,10,7

Kept the other stats the same

So with Uberfix Compost III and Uproot IV, damage = 3200 over 10 seconds, and refresh is 5 in the best case scenario for QoT. (Cata + Diamond Pendant)

30 Range can reach the cit from the Reinforcement Flag, so if you have a bit of time time, you can easily put 6400 damage on the cit while capping that flag.

To me that seems too much.

Does this ability to damage structures outweigh the general ineffectiveness you'll have by sinking 7 points in Uproot and Compost? (I'm also not saying do this at the start of the game)

Is there perhaps a tipping point, where a certain feature makes this imbalanced? eg: Refresh below affect's duration, or perhaps 30 range.

You're still ignoring how insanely, ridiculously, mind-blowingly overpowered Ground Spikes is against structures.  You cannot address the problems with Uproot without first fixing this, at the very least by preventing the GS armor buffs from affecting structures (EntityCategory = 'ALLUNITS -STRUCTURE').

So yes, it is very easy to make Uproot overpowered against structures as long as Ground Spikes still is, and you're trying to make Uproot worth taking over or alongside Ground Spikes.

The main difference is that Ground Spike has a limited range. I have been in many games where I have been prevented from demolishing anything but the corner tower on cata without putting myself in danger. (generally because there is an LE or a DA on the other team)

I guess the point being is that in a game where you cannot advance deep into enemy territory, there is possibly a need for a ranged anti-tower niche skill.

From a balance perspective this would be fine if QoT was a tier 1 DG, but since she is not, it's hard to justify removing her one claim to fame, which is ridiculous white damage potential.

I don't see how you can justify boosting the hell out of another of her structure-killing abilities while she already has unquestionably the most powerful and effective structure-killing ability in the game.  No other ability can cause structures to take over twice as much damage, turning 750 mana into tens of thousands of hitpoints of extra damage from minions, creeps and other demigods in a matter of seconds.

Just be aware that you'll never get most people to agree with boosting QoT's minion damage and Uproot damage while Ground Spikes is still completely broken against structures.  Any ability that can cause all units to do 250% damage to the Citadel is fundamentally, horribly broken and imbalanced.  QoT being debatably 'too weak' is not a good argument for leaving that broken ability in the game - that's not how balance works.  You fix the stuff that's brokenly powerful, and compensate for it by giving her other more reasonable boosts in other places (better Shield, Uproot, Compost, Entourage, etc).

It's worth noting that if you think Ground Spikes should still do something to structures, a second buff that only affects structures can easily be added.  I don't think a smaller negative armor bonus is a good idea, but perhaps something that would specifically synergize with Uproot, such as a buff that sets a flag on the unit that Uproot uses to do extra damage.

I would think people would be more outraged if ground spikes was changed. (I Know I would be)

I am curious about 1 thing though "Just be aware that you'll never get most people to agree with boosting QoT's minion damage". I am wondering what you mean by this? I have no way advocated it at all... all I've advocated is scaling 3 points in entourage to be the equivalent of 3 points in Morale.

The decision would be; Tribute? Take 4 points in the entourage line, DPS? Take 4 points in the morale line.

Infact, if you only took 1 or 2 points in entourage, I've also advocated that 1 or 2 points in morale would still produce higher DPS. It's not until 3 points are taken in entourage that you have a point per point equilibrium with morale.

Anyways, that is not really getting to what I am talking about with uproot, the point is finding a niche use for uproot considering ground spikes.

So summarizing from before.

Gspike is close ranged, highly damaging and unsafe.

Uproot could be moderately damaging, and safe(r) with some range. Q: Is 30 too high? 25 is not.

I suppose I could always make uproot do white damage, because it wouldn't affect the skill at all unless the tower was spiked.

15 range is not unsafe.  15 range is 'I have to take one tower hit'.  Big deal, especially if you also have Shield, with which you can take several hits and tank for your minions while they annihilate the tower.

Nothing else in the game can claim a fraction of the structure and Citadel-destroying power that Ground Spikes has, with the exception of flat-out cheese like Spirit rushes.  Nobody complains about this because QoT is fairly mediocre in every other regard, but that doesn't justify this ability's significant imbalance, especially not in the context of a mod that boosts QoT's other stats and abilities.

Giving QoT yet another completely amazing structure-destroying ability as an optional but otherwise inferior choice for that beginning ~20% of the game when it isn't safe to walk up to a tower with Shield on and use Ground Spikes is not good balance. Keeping Ground Spikes the way it is and making it even MORE powerful by trying to make Uproot synergize with it would be even more terrible balance.  Uproot will either be insanely overpowered or completely worthless as long as Ground Spikes can triple all non-ability damage to structures.

I appreciate the feedback

"15 range is not unsafe"

Just to be sure, you are saying, range 15 is safe as QoT if extended?

I disagree pretty much, having been ganked several times crossing to the enemy side of "still on the flag" with pretty much no chance to avoid the gank other than not extending in the 1st place.

For certain if the enemy is on foot, then Spike Wave offers you very good protection to extend, but LE, DA, CoN Oak and a perfect boulder toss all put you in the danger zone (rememeber that song?) if you are in open mode. (Are you singing Danger Zone in your head now mwhaha?)

So, still back on question and some further situational examination. If you are in a situation where you cannot advance easily on structures to spike (cata is usually not a good example, but prison is a semi-popular map where this can occur) would adding Uproot at the end of your build be an option if it reached out a bit further?

So in the context of improving uproot, I am looking more at isolating the 2 from each other's consideration (because consensus is pretty much, always take GSpike and never uproot as it is). So, for end game situations where you can't really ground spike a structure on any whim, but can harass them while jockeying for a more advantageous position, uproot can be a pseudo-timer so that you win in taking down a tower if a defending demigod can't push you away. (eg: pressuring the 4 tower clusters on leviathan, extending with the current uproot is almost certain death, and trying to Gspike those is death)

Again, does anyone think range 30 is too far for uproot? I am kind of on the fence of yes, but this is the range LE can project out to at level 10, you are only a snare and a stun away from a 2 on 1 since you have no interrupt.

Also another consideration

The Uproot vs Spit comparison, where the 2 skills are very similar when attacking structures. both have 10 ticks and an area effect at level 15
But... Spit has refresh 7 (vs15), can be fired on any target (uproot only on structures)
The positive difference being uproot out-ranges spit by 5 and uproot synergizes with compost... which is meh as implemented. So even without ground spikes on QoT, I can't really see uproot being a wowie cool useful skill.

So asking yourself, would decreasing or increasing some of the difference between uproot and spit make uproot more viable?

As suggested, scaling range and refresh as you sink more points into uproot is one possibility.

I'm not disagreeing with an Uproot boost.  I think it needs a significant boost.  But not while Ground Spikes allows a level 10 QoT to take out an upgraded tower in 10-15 seconds with 2 casts and a Shield.  Is there some risk if an enemy DG is nearby?  Maybe, but not terribly much if you're paying attention and/or using/carrying a Totem.  And if there isn't an enemy DG nearby, that's a very dead tower.

I have to agree that GS is too strong against structures.

It's so really no point of improving uproot when there is another skill competing with it, which usage is even more universal, since you have to "sacrifice" skill points into uproot. Why bother if GS does a similiar and at the moment better job?

Negate armor reduction on structures and improve uproot. Only few would say then that the changes you made are be OP.

But making uproot a strong skill with a high reach could not find acceptance because what would you think if you guard the tower (or the tower guards you ^^) and a QoT just eats it away from a safe distance?

Changes done to the game by mods have a hard time being accepted, so changes should not be to extreme, when all you need to do to avoid it, is disable the mod and play the plain (support-dead) game.

But not while Ground Spikes allows a level 10 QoT to take out an upgraded tower in 10-15 seconds with 2 casts and a Shield. 

That's totally acceptable. (1) If corner towers are not down by the point QoT reaches level 10, something is very wrong with the participants of that particular match. (2) Demolishing mid with GS is QoT's forte and probably the most important reason to pick her: if your adversaries have minimal map awareness, it's still a perilous task, even in a creep wave with catas+ out.

While trying to nerf QoT's principal strength is a curious idea by itself, I surely cannot endorse it balance-wise

I'm not disputing this at all.  However, this role should be filled by an improved Uproot, rather than GS, which is easily the single most versatile, powerful, and mana-efficient ability in the game.  It's also horribly imbalanced against groups of structures, forts, and the citadel, issues that a properly-balanced Uproot would not have (while still being very good at steadily chewing up mid towers - rather than downing them in seconds with no chance of reprisal by the enemy team).

Again, trying to improve Uproot and keep it balanced while GS is already mind-blowingly good is simply not possible.  If you're dead-set on keeping GS as-is, then the only option for balancing Uproot is to turn it into a completely different type of skill altogether.

Your comment makes me so cranky lol.

So, at least you laughed and that is good to decrease stress.

Maybe you're right and my worries are overcast. But people have problems with changes so I think they should be done carefully if you want them to accept a mod that tries to balance something.

The question to me is, how strong do you want to make uproot to compete with GS? And will a majority accept it?

It's fun to change things in singleplayer. But we all know (I think) how difficult it is to get the people use mods at all in MP.

Rook is a strong DG, no doubt. To take out a tower just with his trebuchet is possible but would you really count on that? And nobody would go for a tower alone if an enemy DG is guarding it (must admit that almost all games I played online where on high tower setting). Sure, if the tower is left alone, Rook will deal heavy damage to it, but a QoT at the same lvl with GS is also capable to do that.

Yes,

On cata you can tower the intersection where the enemy tower once was to siege the dual towers guarding the portal.

Then just watch for opportunities to advance; eg: Some guys are not fresh, and the fresh guy just teleported, so you know you have a window of opportunity to take that weakened treb hat hit tower down.

If they want to guard the dual towers, than that is a mistake on their part, because they cannot get XP from the creep wave (it is not headed that way)