Uproot Discussion

Uproot will never be a viable skill choice because groundspikes is far superior for your tower destruction needs.

Even in the case of a full minion queen?

eg: Compost III + Shamblers + Entourage + Mulch + Shield

1 point in uproot with compost III can do 1500 damage to a tower.
2 is enough to tear down a Rook Tower when the build for Rook is only 2 points in power of the Tower.

Etc...

4 points in compost/ uproot skills vs rooks 2 points in towers? Ground spike can do the same thing in 4 points or less of skills and its usefully vs demigods and creeps where compost and uproot really are not.

on that note I don't really know how to make uproot a useful skill and I believe that is your presuit in this thread. Sorry for not helping.

I guess in that scenario you would take compost to play your minion build, not specifically for uproot. So although it is compost + uproot vs 2 points on Rook, you didn't specifically take compost for anti-tower, but rather for minion performance. The uproot power would be a secondary concern, if it was viable vs taking skills in anything else.

Again, this is in some crazy world where compost is actually a skill that is as viable as morale.

Uproot has one major minus. What is its use where there are no towers? In plain field or when towers are gone? It gets usefull benefit only at level 15, but by then towers are usually gone (even if rook is in game his hammer is more dangerous than his towers, so he can just stop raising them).

I'd think somehow to make it damage demigods would make skill better... Like half damage or around towers somehow more... Shamblers + uproot + compost is not terrible combination. However you need loads of mana. Also you need shield to survive at least a bit, because against other demigods... you are weak...

Uproot does work on the citadel.

We flogged the 'violent siege at all levels' idea once long ago, and the consensus was it was all around bad for gameplay, since Rook generally towers right where the creeps meet. eg: It's one thing to be a counter to towers, but it's another thing to make it impossible to use towers with rook.

On the mana issue, what do you think about making uproot work like rook's towers? Say 425 mana at all levels?

On the safety issue vs other DGs, how about increasing the range of uproot? eg: Range 25 allows you to hit the 1st tower on cataract while just slightly past the flag.

Any other stat tweaks you can think of for your identified issues?

Thanks

How powerfull did you make it? Comparison. Level 4 uproot just by itself does 2000 damage to one tower. Violent siege does 1000 damage AoE at level 15. By this level such damage is pretty low and compared to towers with 2k hp... need to uses to destroy or be close to destroying rooks' towers. While someone like Torch Bearer with Circle of Fire can do more damage in same amount of time in larger radius for less mana (yeah, disadvantage is that he has to come close). Rain of Ice however is a bit weaker, but even more damage and far range. Cooldown of uproot is long. And that Violent siege  I think at first level shouldn't do whole 1k damage. Something like 250 might be good enough. But well... I haven't tested, so I don't know...

Well, it was awhile ago and to be clear I am on the side against violent siege, however negligible, on any level before V.

The main concern is what you've identified, range.
Why is Rook going to plop down a tower in a lane, thus allowing you to farm creeps while you run off to cap a flag?

This is like being able to drop a ring of fire like an ice storm, as long as Rook is ready to make a tower handy for you.

Adjusted Violent Siege damage at all levels of uproot does sound like it might be a good idea, until that little problem comes up.

The crux is that people don't want the QoT to be very good. Uproot with VS at all levels wasn't overpowered. LO should probably link all the Uproot discussions so that people can get background if they are interested.

heh - I don't think folks want qot or any other dg to be weak

Given the hullabaloo over how Poison Blood potions should work, I revoke the right to assume rational thought and action to demigod players.

haha... ok then

Oh come on now... no need to link

The rational is pretty easy

Can you farm creeps with Uproot? Yes? Stupid (Thanks for the tower Rook, fire and forget from safety, go cap flags etc...)

and not to derail into poison blood...

The game was designed to be about 1/2 match performance and 1/2 win loss. (hence the reason single player works on favor points).
LE killing a team mate to increase his own kill and gold amount and their death amount makes perfect sense in that context.

The one thing I will give you is that LE should not be able to farm himself, and should get a suicide if he does (escape a kill option)

Forces of darkness are selfish evil dicks afterall, and it is funny for them to have gameplay mechanics like that.

Given the hullabaloo over how Poison Blood potions should work, I revoke the right to assume rational thought and action to demigod players.

ahahahah

/signed

Depends. If rook is not in the game. You need to somehow keep troops near the towers, as to farm them (make them attack you or your minions near tower). Like this you could also prevent enemy demigods from staying close to their towers.

If Rook is in game. Why does he need to put a tower at all? If he doesn't have to, he can easily avoid by not putting it. If he wants to build some protection for himself. He can put it such way, that it wouldn't farm troops. Troops need to stay near his towers and to do that his sides troops must not be interrupted. In other words, by default troops colide at the center. If someone kills them quickly (rooks' normal attack throws units in air) troops move forward and are not farmed by uproot. 1-2 hits could deal, but that is all. The only problem rook has is tower farm. It probably would be one of the most effective ways to destroy it, but look again what ways already are. 3 mines each for 450 = 1350 (more than uproot AoE). Circle of Fire 1500. Rain of Ice 800 (a lot wider area). Blast off 650 x 2 = 1300. Lightning 750 10 targets. So small AoE and 1000 damage per skill (except to main target 2000 or more) isn't gamebreaking I think... Not even overpowered.

In other words, rook should watch where he puts his towers as it could kill more troops, do more damage that without it, but besides that... It is still a weak skill. Towers gone = uproot gone.

I see you are arguing the irrational argument brought by the opposite side.

If Rook decides to go towers, and then you take uproot, it's his own fault?

So the next question in the  process to test your sanity is: Does your violent siege damage allow you to farm the corner towers? Hell no (if the damage is reasonable) that is not where the creeps meet, so you cant get XP and gold if you fire uproot and run somewhere else.

That sort of brings up the point, what exactly are you trying to accomplish by having violent siege on uproot?

Farm creeps off of towers? Or punish DGs hugging towers. The problem is, having enough damage to scare a DG hugging a tower enables the 1st option (farm creeps), and... once again allows QoT to farm with impunity.

This is not a good way to play the game.

• LO you undermine your arguments by resorting to personal attacks.
• Is Circle of Flame or Rain of Ice fair?
• If they are fair, then what's wrong with giving a similar ability to the QoT which allows her to do the same type of damage and remove her current useless Uproot.
• To be specific, increase the duration, keep total damage constant, increase the range it can be cast from, but force it to only be cast on towers.
• We can call this new ability, Uproot.
• If Circle of Flame and Rain of Ice aren't fair, I suggest a crusade against TB to make him less overpowered.

Both rain of ice and circle of fire are fine.

Rain of ice is not fire and forget. You must be there when the creeps are there.
Circle of fire does not have range... you must expose yourself to use it.

You didn't answer my question however so I will repeat it for convenience.

What are you hoping to do with Violent Siege at all levels of Uproot?

Q: What are you hoping to do with Violent Siege at all levels of Uproot?

A: Make it less useless.

Even the fully buffed form of Uproot wasn't worth getting. That's the version with Violent Siege at all levels, plus the heal, and double damage to towers.

The range of Rain of Ice is huge. It also isn't restricted in placement. There isn't a TB alive that would trade Rain of Ice for the revised version of Uproot. That is suggestive of something.

Here is my counter question. What specific evidence would be necessary to convince you that Violent Siege on Uproot isn't over powered? If you don't have an answer, I don't see how a conversation can result being that nothing can change your mind.

The answer wasn't really want I was looking for.

What do you want to affect in the game by having violent siege on uproot?

If you recall our last impasse on this subject,

It's bad to have violent siege on Rook towers because it breaks how Rook works. Rook towers go where the creeps meet.
Having it work on a map Tower but not a Rook tower is all around weird since the main uproot affect works on rook towers.

Ultimately Violent siege at all levels of uproot would be an awesome idea if there were no such thing as rook towers. But since there are, it can't work.

What opposite side? I think I brought myself... Unless I missed something.

Yes it is his fault. If Sedna takes yetis against Tb and Oculus is it Sednas' fault? Is it my fault to take Bestial Wrath at early levels instead of ooze, venom spit? If player doesn't adjust (think) to his opponents, then he is weak and doesn't know what he is doing. Thus meaning his failure. Is it my fault to take Symbol of Purity against UB who doesn't spit? - Yes it is. Same should work with Rook.

Yeah I probably am wrong here. Even if Uproot did AoE equal to its uproot damage, it wouldn't be good. It doesn't work well with others skills of QoT. Close to no synergy. If you sacrifice ground spikes = no kills, cannot push demigods, cannot ues uproot on towers (against rook would be better, but still close to useless). If you sacrifice shield, no saving skill (well could survive without that). If you sacrifice minions, you have no pushing power (even more weakening you as you don't have ground spikes). Compost is pretty much useless here as it only adds damage against towers. So overall... Even if it dealt AoE damage around tower of 2k I probably wouldn't take it until very very late levels. If I'd get it at all...

And yeah. "Nerf" Circle of Fire. 2 Circles of Fire can destroy whole Rook farm in wide area. 3k damage is "overpowered". Also. Don't forget. Circle of Fire and Rain of Ice work everywhere. Don't need a tower.

So that if X demigod makes one of over powered demigods a bit weaker, then it's a big no no to changes? If QoT with shield could remove spit it would be over powered, because Beast cannot be weak? If Sedna could Silence Oak with shield 3 it would be over powered? If Demon could swap Erebus out of his mist, it would be over powered?

Well if that's the case... Then I don't know... I'll take a look at other uproot discussions for myself then. But intelligent rook with towers is stronger than QoT with maxed uproot, because AoE doesn't reach many towers and isn't strong enough. If it could heal towers, damage enemy demigods directly for less damage over time (like spit), etc. Then I might reconsider and start using it.

This situation is quite different. It is the exact opposite of of your symbol of purity example, and it affects an external part of the gameplay mechanic, beyond the DG vs DG consideration.

eg: Sure purity's purge counters spit, but it also doesn't affect external mechanics to that one situation. eg: Also let you farm the lane safely at a distance when Rook plants a tower in the lane, while also one shoting said Rook's tower and, doing up to 3000 damage to towers. (3200 if the compost bug is fixed). As bad as Uproot is, that is too much crap stacking on one situation in the game, find something else to give uproot more utility.

QoT can already do such farming in a different way. Summon shamblers and eat them while taking a flag. However that asks for different tree of skills, which has nothing to do with uproot. So QoT can

Sorry for necroing this. 

Can LO explain this to me? The damage bonus per tick is 20 (I), 40 (II), 60 (III) per every 3 units composted, right? Which means, potentially we have, indeed, 20-60 per tick with Compost I (200-600), but 40-120 per tick with Compost II (400-1200) and 60-180 per tick with Compost III (600-1800). Am I reading it all wrong?

Also, what is the buff's duration? In other words, how long does it take the composted unit counter to decrement?

I wish the wife would uproot me more often