Why are the evil AIs so weak?

The Drengin were badly nerfed even worse.  It seems to be their lack of focus/care for their economy ... they don't try to get it going, they fall way behind in research and tech and can't fund many colonies.  It gets worse by the time you get to the last expansion because Stardock un-equalized the tech trees for all and gave the Drengin really shitty economy and research capabilities.

I generally focus heavily on economy and research at the beginning and let other races get a bit of a head start building up their militaries.  By the time they are enough of a menace to declare war, my research and economy are so potent, my zero military will exceed theirs in less than 10 turns, before they can do anything (and they don't have planetary invasion in those early wars, so I only lose a few ships).

Well, perhaps they still believe the original (and faulty) description, and they really aren't out for influence wins.

Seriously, it's "Concepts of Malice" that they don't prioritize in researching. Once they have it, all 4 Evil-wonders have a pretty high value to set into the planetary queue, even the Temple of Evil - which is most costly but totally pointless.

On other notes, one reason for evil to be bad in an max-AI setting is that they have a weak diplomcy in general, and also are despised by other races. They will find themselves much faster in a war as Terrans for example. And under almost every circumstances war against an equal enemy is very nerfing to an AI. The MR on both sides will be reduced - causing another (very hard) diplo-hit, which will subsequently lead to the annihilation of this AI. In that vein the best thing to do for a player is to keep the galaxy at war constantly, while staying out of them completely and building up ones econ/mil. When that happens you "eat" smaller kingdoms easily without loosing too much strength, and so on. But this is not really a behaviour that can be seen from the AI's, they make war for wars sake, even if it mean their own demise.

Agreeing with Maiden666 - In almost all of the Suicidal games that I have managed to win, keeping AIs with greater military rating than mine in at least two wars at all times was just about the biggest factor.

Firstly, what version of GCII are you playing.

The MCC only gives the economic bonus in DL and DA. In TA, it works as written (culture flipping planets that are at 4xInf immediately)

Secondly, a "known" issue in TA (and I'm not convinced it was fixed) was that the AI (of all races, but its very noticeable in any race that got major tech tree changes) is a two-fold problem; they 1) won't colonize in another race's sphere of influence in the first colony rush (ie for some reason this doesn't seem to happen when colonizing extreme worlds) and 2) the AI will also calculate range/speed/time to reach habitable worlds at the start. For some reason, if they feel they can't adequately reach those worlds, they won't expand to them at all.

The "best" ways to get your Evils to expand and be an actual force? Make sure their economic bonus is maxed in the Edit Opponent screen; give them passive economic bonuses, population growth bonuses, and finally, range and speed bonuses.

The Arceans are in dire need of the passive speed bonus in order to compete as an AI. They are competitive from a Player stand-point however, but then a Human player also knows where/when to build their projects, and how to be diplomatic for more speed techs.

Or, you could solve the problem by being the Evil Race yourself lol.  I will say that the Korath and Yor have extremely powerful tech trees when used properly, and can more than smash the opposition even without all the ideas and tactics used by the mega-players (i.e. a "traditional" game that doesn't use the Galactic Swindle, Starbase Array, Massive Military Upgrade)

Thanks for the responses! A few points in reply:

This is saddening to hear... and also a bit puzzling, as many of the AARs I read of Drengin or Korath going nuts were (obviously for the latter) on DA. TOA tech trees indeed seem to have unbalanced the AIs.

This still doesn't seem to be true - I gifted my Korx allies Concepts of Malice once and they never built it. I'm usually neutral so I don't often have the chance to repeat this, though. Also, it's funny you suggest them not building the MCC by choice, because I actually prefer not to build it myself (unless I really need it) - I personally don't like 'taking advantage' of a bug.

I've never played on Suicidal, but I agree that this is key to dealing with powerful AIs. The only problem with it is that, at least once, the "superpower" went on to conquer all of its opponents and became even stronger (in fact, this was the game where the Arceans defeated me - they were the superpower AI).

BTW, when I discussed that most races have challenged me, I view that as a good thing. In a game that had good AI as a selling point, I actually like to lose once in a while.

DL... which makes a fair amount of your advice fairly irrelevant, no offense. This is also why the Arceans have proved a challenge.

I have done this, though as I said, I'm mostly neutral, which makes the pitiful performance of the evil races even stranger. My first game as the Drengin was a complete blowout win that was much faster then anything I've had before. (BTW, to what does the "Massive Military Upgrade" refer to in your list of "mega-player tactics"? I'm not familiar with it.)

Funnily enough, after writing this post, in my current game I'm being brutally slaughtered by the Drengin, who are averaging a 4:1 kill ratio against my ships. They finally seem to be losing after I bribed the Thalans to join in, but they're still a major force and could make a comeback. The irony...

One thing that always sticks to my mind when I read reports from other games is that this game can be different from map to map, player to player, expansion to expansion. There just seem to be too many variables present to bring this all into one line. Which, in my opinion, is a very good thing as it keeps the game interesting forever. You never know what you will encounter. But it makes it harder for different players to relate to each other. So, e.g. when I say I've observed (via Spies) a 100% queue-rate of the MCC of all evil StockRaces in DA then this reflects the one side of the spoon, and your experience is the other side. However, in this case we both are right and none of us is wrong.

The mechanisms when a StockRace queues in a Super/Trade/Wonder on a planet are very random, yet there can be patterns observed which seem to be fix. First, such a project is (or let's better say *seems*) always queued onto an empty tile - and never over an existing planetary improvement. Hence, if you gift "Concepts of Malice" mid/late-game to an AI he won't use it, because planets are outbuilt already. The best would be to do so during the Colonial Rush, but given the way you seem to play this game might mean you don't possess that tech so soon. In contrast, I will have this tech usually after 8-12 turns of a game. Still, this isn't all of it. The AI usually queues in a Starport and 2 factories upon colonization, sometimes labs etc. After them being built a Super/Wonder/etc might follow but there are actually lots of them, and even if you go so far as to gift them solely "Concepts of Malice" (and nerf their research ability by taking all their money away) there are still the other 3 Evil-only Wonders that accompanies this specific tech, and which, paradoxically, seem to have the same priority to him as the MCC, although undoubtedly the MCC & the ASC are really strong, whereas Temple/No-Mercy are pointless. So, the chance is there, but it is scarce even with the right apprehension.

Another common factor why this is so seldomly observed is the simple fact that the player usually builds the MCC first.

Yeah well, that was a joke. The AI's don't seem to evaluate the buildings-bonus before queuing it. Because if that would be the case, you won't see any AI build the Micor-Repair-Bots or Temple-of-Evil, even so more not during the Colonial Rush phase.

Well, if we look statically at this problem it might seem that e.g. the Yor are much stronger than the Drengin (in TA). They have a lot of better racial-bonuses, as well as a better techtree, esp. in the beginning. Too much to mention here. Drengin have the strong Slave Canyons and early access to Evil-weapons, but are really weak in other terms, esp. research. However, in the "Arcea's Last Stand"-tournament, where you find yourself against these 2 in a war right from the start, I could observe the Drengin doing by far better than the Yor. They were colonizing more fast, researching better, building better ships.... And the map can't be responsible for that, because it's fixed, as well as I did repeat this map to try out a different tactic. One thing I assume could be responsible for that is that the Yor have been nerfed in their AiAbilities, whereas Drengin go full thrust. It might mean that, probably, the Yor cannot lease-buy their powerful improvements and fall in behind.... maybe. Who knows - esp. that the player can change that and, unlike DL, this change will stay, leading to new (un)balance.

Yeah, the tougher the better

That's usually done to grind points. After a player has gained control of the galaxy he turns all planets into economic powerhouses, and uses his funds to lease-buy a great amount of empty hulls until his economy is drained from the ever-greater getting return of leases. Then, all these hulls are upgraded to max ATT or DEF to gain enormously points of Military Score. That's of course now very oversimplified spoken....

However, with the right preparation such a thing could also be used to win a warfighting game. You'll need a fair amount of Hulls which are transformed into end-tier Fighters, and as much (or more) Troop Transports as the enemy has planets. As this will totally bankrupt you (without ever recovering) you can set taxes to 0% so you'll have a fair amount of popgrowth on your planets, making them more resistant to invasion. Then you go and blast your enemy. Of course you need to be fast, but esp. in DL I see no problems. A bit cheesy, esp. as you would use a tactic/funds that the AI will never use.... but well... the AI has also a lot of advantages the player doesn't have, esp. in a suicidal warfight.

Yeah, this would be pretty consistent with my experience, and certainly the one instance I cited, I gifted the Korx Concepts of Malice 5 or more years into the game, well after the very short colony rush period. So that would fit. Also, I just have to ask: how could you possibly have even Xeno Ethics 8 - 12 turns into the game let alone Concepts of Malice? I could maybe see it as a possibility with 100% research funding and very fast tech rates, but it still seems very early in the game.

I completely agree, but when I've played 50+ games with many different galaxy sizes and on several difficulty levels, yet can count on one hand the number of times any evil race has done well, it does seem like something's wrong.

Certainly not! Temple of Evil/Good/Neutrality is always useless... Micro Repair Bots at least is a trade good (and thus can be traded). On a slightly related note, why does the AI always seem to build all its capitals on its homeworld? The bonuses of the 'civilization capital' seem enough to me that I never give the homeworld more then one capital.

Yes, the AI theoretical statistics vs. AI performance definitely don't match up. The Drath have some of the best bonuses in DL but the Drath AI is typically rather feeble. Other races that look weak can play very strong - of course, a lot does depend on the map.

What does the last sentence mean?

Interesting... I've never heard of this as a "real" tactic. I know about the other use to raise Military Score but assumed that wasn't what Silverbeacher meant from the context.

Oh and

I did know that...

Actually, it is very easy to do so.

First, you are very right - I go all-lab and very fast research speed.

Secondly, I usually take everything I can into racial-reseach-bonuses, and that sums up to +65% right from the start. This will multiply itself with the suicidal-research-modifier, and alone this configuration gives me an enormous advantage right from the start - at least, compared to a game that is started in a more "normal" setting.

Of course, this isn't the end of it. Once the game is started my main-focus is to do a most-efficient research, and there are quite a few different techniques/methods available to maximize this, some of them can be carried-out simultanously, and some subsequently....

[Actually, I could elaborate on these in great detail here, but as this is one important key-factor to maximize score won't do so. ]

....and all of them taken together enable me to research most branches of the techtree in a single turn each. There are some exceptions to this, basically the 3 weapon-branches and those techs leading to technological victory.

Also, I never managed to research the armour-branch in one go, it took usually 2 turns (from "Armour Theory" (the Iconian's have it) to "Duralthene Armour" - and from this to finally ZPA) but this is due to the fact that I need ZPA very early on while my RP isn't yet fully outbuilt. So ....."maybe".... this could be done in one (later) turn, too 

Can't say for sure, basically there are two reasons. The CivCap gives more *base* production - making the build of these caps more easy (or fast); and once built, these will find more (again) base production which they can multiply. So, all in all logically, but not on a long-range scale: Building these caps on a PreCursor-planet, or a PQ29 will yield far better results - with the exception of the EconCap.

In DL (I think you are a DL-player, right?) the game will pick the bonuses of your AI's.

In DA/TA you can edit them, and these bonuses will stay. Actually, you can simply change any of their values/traits, ethics, AiBehaviour, Political Party, racial distribution points, aggression... everything. Thus, to serve my example of the previous post, I could take the Yor back to the full level of AI possibilities, and this then, coupled with their obvious starting bonuses, will maybe change their gameplay to the better.

Now, imagine that, in all likelihood, every poster here on these forums did probably beef up his AI's, played around with them or simply made changes to accomodate his on own player, and later all these changes *stayed* to become a part of the AI traits then..... This might be one of the reasons why people experience these races so differently, because they *are* differently setup.

On a DL-note. If I take the Drath with their +50% racial DEF bonus; and select another +30% DEF in the distribution points menu - these will NOT add up to +80% DEF, but in fact, there will only be +30%. A player who knows that can evade that.

But I've always wondered if the program itself is as smart as that, too because from all I know these points are randomly distributed. Has anybody here made some observations to this ever? Because if this is so, it might be one additional explanation why the Draths don't do that all-too-good in DL.

A fellow Kzinti "Arunodayt" once reported that from his game(s); ie. once you've successfully conquered some AI's it's basically just a matter of time until you'll win anyway... and he did use this to quickly pursue the inevitable.

That's about what I thought on the research thing. The only bit I didn't know is that the human player also gets bonuses on Suicidal. Are these inferior to what the AI gets, or what? I play one of those more "normal" games myself, so that would explain why I couldn't possibly get those techs that early - I also just don't like very fast research settings, as it makes for an overly fast-paced game.

We agree there - in fact, Precursor planets or no, I almost never build the manufacturing capital on my HW.

I knew already you can edit the AIs - what didn't occur to mean is that the changes would "stick" from being left that way. I alter my own races' abilities almost every time I start a new game based on game settings, my planned strategies, etc. and I would probably do the latter with AIs in DA/TA.

Yes, I am a DL player only - I don't buy much online, and the expansions are no longer available in stores - although I'm planning to just go ahead and get them online anyway.

That is a fascinating theory for the Drath's lackluster performance - can't be certain of its truth or not, but I can probably test it out. One thing against it - the Drath always have a huge diplomacy advantage; as Terrans with Total Majesty researched, I can outmatch them, but under other circumstances their diplo score is high enough to suggest that they still have the racial bonus.

Its because in DL there are no actual "passive" racial traits (or at least, they are few and far between); while in DA/TA the races have 'native' abilities, in DL they only have abilities equal to the amount of racial points allocated to themselves.   Interestingly enough the Drath abilities (arguably amongst the strongest starting abilities of the DL races) were mapped over to the Krynn in DA.

What are you possibly seeing with the Drath in DL is the "under-the-hood" diplomatic benefit with Good Races, which is actually fairly powerful.  I never played "Good" in DL, but I know in DA at least it allowed me to secure alliances much easier/faster as the Altarians (vs being evil Altarians, which is quite fun too lol)

Actually, that's incorrect - there are some passive racial traits (though as you say, not many of them) and the Drath have, on paper, what looks like far and away the strongest passive traits (including 25% Diplomacy, which is what I referred to). I've always wondered why the Drath AI (usually - as the thread title says, only the evil AIs are always weak) doesn't do well, despite these bonuses. There is a known phenomon (sp?) where putting more points into an ability that your race has a "passive" bonus for overwrites the passive bonus - I suspect this could be the Drath's problem.

Evil Altarians? I play all three alignments regularly - evil the least - but I almost never alter the alignments of races at 99 or 1 starting ethos because it just takes too long. I just played a game with the Altarians where I made all evil and neutral ethical choices and my alignment is still considered "Saintly". I did another one a while back where, out of curiosity, I tried to see if I could make the Drengin good - despite several crippling penalties from making "good" choices, I'm still considered evil (and hated for it by the other races) four years in.

And it would explain why the Yor [at least, to my experience) do so well - because their mighty +25% Miniaturization-bonus (another "true"-racial bonus) cannot be deleted by player or game.

I myself have seen the Thalans (who sometimes go evil) become insanely powerful in TOA. However, I modified them for my personal use by using ability points to fix their downsides. Namely nullifying the population penalty and giving them additional research. I also spent a point on creativity and luck. In almost all my games the Thalans end up grabbing an above average amount of planets in the colony rush, (no doubt due to their insane industry) and then afterwards go on a war path and conquer anyone who doesn't pay them their money. Usually they're way behind in tech but they can build so many ships that its irrelevant.

The Drengin in my games usually end up getting a good enough start and then attempt to go on a war path. They're unsuccessful because for some reason all the AIs gang up on the Drengin and divvy up the planets.

The Korath usually just sit around and do nothing the whole game, very few planets but they sometimes get a bunch of ships.

In a few games the Korx have done rather well, they seem to either get conquered early on or become a minor power.

The Yor are conquered early on 99% of the time since they can't maintain too many ships in TOA.

The Drath (when I'm not playing them at any rate) usually just sit around and let everyone kill each other while they rake in the war profit. Every now and then they'll build up a strong military and conquer some people.

This is all based off Tough I believe? Whatever difficulty where the AI is on equal footing with the player.

Well, in the game I'm playing now the Korath are a pain in... they actually have the strongest military and economy, and are attacking the Altarians. They already have conquered 3 planets via Spore Ship. And my Terran Empire is very near both of them.. let's see what happens now.

In another game, The Korx conquered everything except my Torian Confederation. We had half galaxy per head.. in the end war broke out and they obliterated me(well in fact I retired because I was bored to.. well, death )

To update this post, now that I've played several DA games I can say that the evil races are not weak at all. The Drengin have been a power in every game they've been in and I've just had my first experience with successful Korath. The Yor still seem to do poorly, though. Their miniaturization bonus lets them build fairly impressive ships, but they never seem to develop the economic base to build many of them. In contrast, the Drengin in my current game have literally hundreds of ships - several of which are equal in strength to my fleets.

In DA, at least, it seems the evil races are a challenge.