The Republican disaster

Greed on wall street

from JoeUser Forums

The melt down on wall street is exactly what happens when you have a Republican and a Republican congress. Their faith in letting the market decides means that everyone else, the hard working Americans who make life in this nation possible, suffer the consequences for the greed at the top.

Republicans always claim that communism doesn't work because it doesn't work with human beings. Humans are too greedy and selfish for communism to work. But Democrats never argue in favor of Communism. They argue for a mixed economy.

By contrast, many Republicans loudly and frequently talk about the merits of "letting the market" decide.  What they don't realize is that laissez faire doesn't work either. We don't have anything approaching that but plenty of right wingers think that the solution to our economic problems is less regulation which just results in the mess we're in.

In reality, greedy people who know how to game the system tend to work with like minded allies. The result is you get greedy CEOs who protect one another and collude to enrich themselves and concentrate wealth not based on merit or "market forces" but through pure manipulation or gaming of the system.

So much of the wealth in this country is taken not by those producing a product or service but by people who just know how to manipulate the market, play the system, and skim off the labor of the millions of Americans who ultimately pay the bill when their short-sighted schemes fall apart.

McCain and his Republian allies don't understand this. They sometimes call for more oversight but it's a bandaid. What America needs is leadership from people who understand that the strength of our nation isn't just from the top 1% but by the hard working men and women of the entire nation.

democrat
30,915 views 34 replies
Reply #1 from PolMach Forums Top

I don't know how you are blaming this on Republicans.  McCain was the first person to point out that Freddy and Fannie were on the brink of ruin several years ago, and tried to pass a common sense regulatory bill to stop the miss-management of these companies.  The former CEOs of both these companies are now on Obama's economic advisory team.  They might as well join his team since their former companies had given Barry so much money.  Check it out, these are the greedy bozos who screwed thing up, not the Republicans.  Yes, Republicans stand for letting the free market work out the kinks, but we don't have a problem with common sense regulations.  It's over regulation that gets us into as much trouble as no regulation at all.  Reps and Dems need to work together on this issue a little more, but right now there's too much corruption on both sides.  

We conservatives know that the strength doesn't just lie in the top 1%.  Talk about the super rich is just a typical Democratic distraction.  How about instead of pandering to the poor and middle class with fancy words, we actually empower them to be able to turn their hard work into success.

While I'm sorry for people whose IRA's and 401k's took a beating recently, I have to say we all need to be more involved in what our fund managers do with our money.  We complain about the anything goes old west tactics of Wall Street, yet most of us simply hand our hard earned dollars over to fund managers we know little about, and then cry foul when they lose our money.  I'm sorry, but your money is your responsibility, and if you didn't do your homework and give your fund manager a little more direction about what you want him to do with your money, then losing your retirement is as much your fault as his.  Take responsibility for your own actions.

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

You may wanna rethink your article, and the title of your blog for that matter. There is no sanity in a person accusing the the Republicans of the rollercoaster ride on the Market when Franklin Raines and Jim Johnson, 2 of Obamas top economic advisors benefitted from Fannie-Freddie and then screwed the company up while Obama made millions from them. Talk about hypocrisy. God forbid Democrats blame the ones who abused the system.

ObjectDock - Access shortcuts and frequently used applications from an animated dock.
Reply #3 from PolMach Forums Top

The blame falls on neither the Democrats or Republicans, at least not completely.  If you must blame someone just take a look at the Federal Reserve.  The entity that had set interest rates so low that banks were clamoring to lend, lend, lend because the money was essentially "free".  This caused the birth of the sub-prime loan, which is what got us where we are today.  These sub-prime loans made it so that people, with really crappy credit who had no business borrowing money, to buy houses which in turn caused builders to build more and more houses.  This created our housing bubble which eventually burst, as many knew would happen but chose to ignore because times were good.  Now those same banks that made risky investments in sub-prime loans are faultering and asking for help.  Well guess what folks when you take a risk like that you need to pay the price.  The true free market way out of this mess is to let those banks fail, there should have been no bail outs at all.  Yes it would have been chaos for a while, but the economy would have been better off for it.  Instead we have a government more than willing to hand over hundreds of billions of dollars to reward the people who took huge risks and failed.  This isn't going to help our economy, it's going to hurt it because it sets a precedent now that you can make whatever risky investments you want because in the end the federal government will be there to rescue you.  Way to go government.

If you are as sick of this as I am there is a solution, VOTE AGAINST INCUMBENTS.  Sure they aren't in the Federal Reserve but our government has the authority to either pull power away from the Fed, add more regulations on them, or shut them down entirely.  If you want to avoid this whole fiasco from happening again do what you can to actually change things, VOTE AGAINST INCUMBENTS.

Reply #4 from PolMach Forums Top

It's not letting me edit.  That first line should read: "The blame falls on neither the Democrats or Republicans, at least not directly."

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Free market works in theory, just as communism works in theory.

However, theories don't often translate well into the real world especially with all the outside factors affecting it.

We do have mixed economy...there's government interference in many aspects of the economy...it's what keeps things a little more ordered and buoyant.

I'm just amused at how the government's been bailing out businesses left and right recently and yet Republicans still bitch about regulation...that's interesting.  "Do as I say, not as I do" I guess... :P

~Zoo

Reply #6 from PolMach Forums Top

This caused the birth of the sub-prime loan
End of quote

This is only partially true.  Our wonderfull leaders in Washington passed regulations that forced sub-prime lending on institutions.  This mixed with the fact that money did become too cheap made for one disasterous malitov cocktail.

Reply #7 from PolMach Forums Top

We do have mixed economy...there's government interference in many aspects of the economy...it's what keeps things a little more ordered and buoyant.
End of quote

And it's a delicate balance between overregulation and underregulation.  The problem that we are seeing now is due to underregulation, no one was checking up on what the banks were actually up to with these sub-prime loans.  Had proper regulations been put into place you wouldn't have had loan officers fudging loan applications to get just about everyone approved for a loan.

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

All I Know is the down swing in economics started with the advent of the Democratic Congress, as did higher gas prices and all the trickle down from that, such as higher food prices, higher sundry prices. All this is FACT not some talking head points.

Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top

Your premise is one sided.  Read "Atlas Shrugged" for the other side.  If you HAVE read it, you clearly didn't get it.  Read it again.

Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top

While I'm sorry for people whose IRA's and 401k's took a beating recently, I have to say we all need to be more involved in what our fund managers do with our money.

In the early 90's I began to hear a new word around Wall Street: "Guestimate."  While working for Merrill Lynch's phone company at the WTC we were able follow the markets and control our 401k investments daily. Merrill "downsized" by selling our department and the new management modified our 401k's structure. As a result we could only adjust our portfolio every 90 days.  By then, with any up- or down-swing having taken its course; we could no longer act upon or react to market forces. In other words, we'd have to" guestimate" the markets three months in advance. (If I could do that I wouldn't have needed to work for Merrill Lynch or anyone else for that matter.) Many of us saw big chunks of our retirement investments disappear during the mid-90s drop.

While researching possible "lateral promotions" with other potential employers I found out that the modified 401k approach was commonplace within other firms. Now I hear others say we are to blame for allowing others to mismanage our retirement monies. Using this rational it would be prudent to say that had I still worked in that ex-Merrill department which was located inside the WTC it also would've been my fault for allowing myself to perish that day when the towers fell.

While the cat's away...In my opinion the extra war (Iraq) has contributed to the current financial fiasco. Both Congress and the Administration have been busy looking overseas and failed to deal with what was happening at home. Now's time to pay the piper. Again WE THE PEOPLE bear the cost/loss.  We gotta stop sticking our collective heads in the sand when times are good so we can avoid the abuses/abusers that brings us to bailout solutions time-and-again.

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

I have to laugh here.  Not one of the companies that have failed were free market companies.  They are companies that were either given guarantees by the government, or partially owned by  them.  This isn't an example of failure of the free market, this is exactly what happens when you tell companies to go ahead and take stupid risks with investments, we'll cover your losses.

Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top

The melt down on wall street is exactly what happens when you have a Republican and a Republican congress
End of quote

Good thing we DONT have that, right?  Instead (like the S&L meltdown) we have a Democrat congress - again!  There is a reason the meltdown waited until Pelosi and Reid were in charge - they caused it!

Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top

If there were any doubts about Calor's hyper-partisan status... this should clear it up.  Interesting read though. 

Reply #14 from PolMach Forums Top

Let's take a time machine back to May 6, 1999. On this date, Congress passed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. This law covered an awful lot of territory, including repealing many of the rules the Glass-Steagal Act of the New Deal Era set in place. A major implication of this is that banks were now allowed to offer insurance, consumer banking, and investment banking services. Just a small list of things directly caused by the Act:

  • The Enron incident, due to the now-infamous "Enron Loophole" energy speculation policies the law allows
  • The sub-prime mortgage crisis
  • The eventual collapse of several major finance companies, including Lehman Brothers, AIG, and others
Alan Greenspan - who is not exactly a liberal - will also tell you straight up that the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act probably has the most culpability in this current crisis.
It was written by then-Senator Phil Gramm, who has also been a paid to lobby congress for even fewer banking regulations by Swiss Bank UBS. Phil Gramm is also the author of John McCain's current economic policies.
Not one of the companies that have failed were free market companies.
So . . . you're trying to tell me what the Republican party actively encouraged a socialized market? I mean, don't get me wrong, that's certainly what we have. But that doesn't exactly fit the rhetoric of the past 30 some-odd years, does it?

Reply #16 from PolMach Forums Top

Quoting Dr,

The melt down on wall street is exactly what happens when you have a Republican and a Republican congress
Good thing we DONT have that, right?  Instead (like the S&L meltdown) we have a Democrat congress - again!  There is a reason the meltdown waited until Pelosi and Reid were in charge - they caused it!
End of Dr's quote

Actually this has been in the works for years its hardly the Democrats at fault here and its not all the Republicans. And to the ones saying the Fannie-Freddie guys are Obama's economic advisors, way to use McCain talking points guys. You might want to check how factual they are before you use them though as they are by no means economic advisors for Obama they and he will tell you so. He met with Obama once, hardly an advisor. Check out Factcheck.org its a great website for those sort of things.

 

This is a build up of problems caused by deregulation, "hands off" economics and a large portion of the blame goes on the federal reserve. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act as Zelbinian pointed out had a major role in this as well. Now you see why regulations should be in place to keep buisness owners from making risky investments to line their pockets while having US the taxpayers bail their ass out when the shit hits the fan.  Also love how only certain business get these hand outs. If you think this had to do largely with the Democrats your wrong.

I won't even say most the republicans had a hand in this but McCain certainly did. Hes one of the strongest deregulators in congress. Thats all he talks about when it comes to economics.  Quite a few people warned this was coming everybody from that mad money guy can't remeber his name, Obama and even Ron Paul warned of it.

Most americans just don't have money in their pocket right now. Times are tighter than I've ever seen. Thats bad for everybody, including wall street. Gas prices are sky high and wages arent going up. Its a wonder we went this long without things breaking down.

Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top

Actually this has been in the works for years its hardly the Democrats at fault here and its not all the Republicans.
End of quote

It is all Congress - But I was using stupid hyperbole just like the author. 

This is a build up of problems caused by deregulation, "hands off" economics and a large portion of the blame goes on the federal reserve.
End of quote

 No, but then I would not expect a democrat to not try to pin blame on the gun makers, instead of the shooter.  It is not the Feds Fault, it is not even the "hands off" fault.  It is very much the "fairness" folks fault.  Wanting to be "fair" they made sure that those not qualified would be able to get money.  Wanting to be "fair" they never paid a mind to how these unqualified people would be able to pay the money back.  And so they defaulted.  ANd in so doing, are dragging down some companies that are mismanaged - for the most part by clinton Advisors (Use your factcheck.org to verify that one).

And instead of allowing them to fail - which is what is needed to be done, they are getting bailed out in the name of "fairness", instead of sanity.

No, this is not "hands off" or the Fed.  This is once again the results of good intentions without regards to reprecussions.  And is why the road to hell is paved with "good intentions" (and no brains).

Reply #18 from PolMach Forums Top

It is not the Feds Fault, it is not even the "hands off" fault. It is very much the "fairness" folks fault. Wanting to be "fair" they made sure that those not qualified would be able to get money.
End of quote

But Doc one of the groups involved in making sure that people not qualified to get money could get it was the Fed.  They lowered interest rates so much that they were essentially giving money away to the banks which in turn lended that money out to people who had no business borrowing money.  The Fed didn't do this because of any congressional action they did so because they wanted to make a quick buck just like the banks.  And it worked for a few years, the banks made tons of money but as the mortgage rates reset the problems started happening.  I'm not saying that the Fed is completely to blame, but they certainly played a major role in creating the housing bubble and constantly trying to prop it up for far longer than it should have been.

Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top

But Doc one of the groups involved in making sure that people not qualified to get money could get it was the Fed. They lowered interest rates so much that they were essentially giving money away to the banks which in turn lended that money out to people who had no business borrowing money. The Fed didn't do this because of any congressional action they did so because they wanted to make a quick buck just like the banks. And it worked for a few years, the banks made tons of money but as the mortgage rates reset the problems started happening. I'm not saying that the Fed is completely to blame, but they certainly played a major role in creating the housing bubble and constantly trying to prop it up for far longer than it should have been.
End of quote

Actually, they couldn't afford even those low rates, primarily ARM's.  The folks who got fixed-rate loans at those low rates (on their own homes) have made up a small percentage of the defaults.  The majority of defaults have been related to ARM's & the drop in home values affecting 'flippers' or speculators.  So the Fed is really not at fault - they actually helped reduce the cost of home ownership for the vast majority.

Reply #20 from PolMach Forums Top

Your premise is one sided. Read "Atlas Shrugged" for the other side. If you HAVE read it, you clearly didn't get it. Read it again.
End of quote

I always love these people if you dont get it your the idiot and need to reread something.  The problem is that this person here is unwilling to admit in any way shape or form that his side MIGHT and I said MIGHT even be wrong.  Ahh the path to the darkside of life.

Reply #21 from PolMach Forums Top

Y ou want the real people to blame try this on for size.  Most of the blame can be put on big Bisiness.  End of story.  The blame that goes to government should go as far as not closing certain loopholes in the regulation system that appear after years of business's finding ways around the last string of regulations placed on them.  Bottom line is that BIG BUSINESS is greedy(and I qaulify this here--for the most part).  Everytime you stick regulationis on them they find away around and then government needs to readjust those regulations.  Its just like a poor person who steals cars.  They add a security feature and the theif figures a new way around it.  HMMM maybe there are as many rich "theives"  i mean businessmen as their are poor ones.

Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top

But Doc one of the groups involved in making sure that people not qualified to get money could get it was the Fed. They lowered interest rates so much that they were essentially giving money away to the banks which in turn lended that money out to people who had no business borrowing money. The Fed didn't do this because of any congressional action they did so because they wanted to make a quick buck just like the banks. And it worked for a few years, the banks made tons of money but as the mortgage rates reset the problems started happening. I'm not saying that the Fed is completely to blame, but they certainly played a major role in creating the housing bubble and constantly trying to prop it up for far longer than it should have been.
End of quote

I do love your sarcasm!  It is good! Yea the mean old feds (who by law cant make a profit) were ujp to their simon legree tactics!

The truth is the feds did not care a whit about the housing boom or bust.  But Greenspan sure over reacted and that contgributed to the housing problems.  Kind of like a beaver contributing to a flood - by design?  No, by coincidence.

Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top

Y ou want the real people to blame try this on for size. Most of the blame can be put on big Bisiness. End of story.
End of quote

Greaqt one!  Give that man a NObel Prize!  And then go ask a bum for a job.  After all Big bidness is bad!  Bums good!

Reply #24 from PolMach Forums Top

Actually, they couldn't afford even those low rates, primarily ARM's. The folks who got fixed-rate loans at those low rates (on their own homes) have made up a small percentage of the defaults. The majority of defaults have been related to ARM's & the drop in home values affecting 'flippers' or speculators. So the Fed is really not at fault - they actually helped reduce the cost of home ownership for the vast majority.
End of quote

Where do you think the ARMs came from?  They were created by the banks to loan money to people who shouldn't have been buying property in the first place.  The banks had all this money to lend away and they were looking for anyway that they could to loan it out.  The Fed is definitely a primary player here.  I'm not saying it's all their fault, but they are definitely a big player.  If you want a really good argument for it check out a video called "The Money Makers" you can find it on google video.  It's long but a very good history on centralized banks and their role in our current economic crisis.

I do love your sarcasm! It is good! Yea the mean old feds (who by law cant make a profit) were ujp to their simon legree tactics!

The truth is the feds did not care a whit about the housing boom or bust. But Greenspan sure over reacted and that contgributed to the housing problems. Kind of like a beaver contributing to a flood - by design? No, by coincidence.
End of quote

The feds have nothing to do with this, the Federal Reserve (the Fed) on the other hand is a PRIVATE bank not a government entity and did facilitate this nonsense.  I am not saying that they are completely at fault here as there is a lot of blame to go around, the actual banks that did the lending, the loan officers, the appraisers, the home buyers who bought homes they couldn't afford.  Lots of blame.  My point was that the Fed, and other national banks around the world, is NOT blameless in this crisis.

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top

The feds have nothing to do with this, the Federal Reserve (the Fed)
End of quote

When talking about banking feds or The Fed is the same thing - Federal reserve.

But as far as THE FED being blameless of blameful, you have to ask yourself a question.  Is it the bartender's fault that he served a drink to the alcoholic?  If the answer is yes, then sure, you can blame the Feds.  If not (and I do not blame the bartender), then the answer is no.  The Feds made a mistake in making money too cheap.  But they did not force the lenders or borrowers to take that drink.