I would love ........ really love ...... some legal beagle to come up with "The Law of Common Sense 2008".

The prospect of watching the inevitable Retard yelling about how the concept of Common Sense violated his Constitutional Rights really appeals to me ......   

Regards
Zy

if blizzard cant control the world they've created thats their problem, they can ban u and everything so they can kick u out of their world whenever they want to.

Actually takin someone to court over this just shows to me the loosing of grip on reality.

Now im not saying there aint no exeptions, like some pervert pedophile or somethin, thats a case upon itself.

But takin someone to trail because he makes cheats?
U can ban him/her and if u cant thats a flaw within ur own software, u cant take someone to court for this in my eyes.

I mean its not a real event or crime, he/she didn't copy or resell the game.
Besides, using cheats is ur own risk.

I dont see how the maker can be resposible for what people do with his script/software.
I mean the people that use his cheats make that disision on their own.

In my eyes, world of warcraft is a "world upon its own" with its own community and its own rulez, completely seperate from real life.
So it seems to me people need to keep in mind that the bottom line is: ITS NOT REALLY HAPPENING, ITS AN ILLUSION!!!
Also, imagine EA takin someone to court for cheating in BF2 or something!

I like how everyone's making Blizzard out to be some kind of heavy handed tyrant in this issue.  In my experience, Blizzard goes out of their way to NOT restrict folks from using their service except when explicit evidence is found that they're breaking the EULA or TOS.  In the cases where folks have been banned from the service due misunderstandings or false positives (see the incorrect bannings of folks running WoW under Cadega), they are more than willing to reverse the decision after being shown it was a mistake.  In fact, in the Cadega incident (which happened as part of a mass banning of WoWGlider/Glider users, ironically enough), Blizzard worked with the Cadega developers to correct the issue with Warden that generated the false positive in the first place.

As for the lawsuit in question, everyone assumes that Blizzard is going after MDY because of some perceived injustice/violation.  Blizzard was doing fine with banning the users of the software, as was their right under the agreed upon TOS/EULA.  And it's made after every patch (just had to acknowledge agreement to them again last night due to the latest patch landing) so it's not like it's a sneakwrap issue.  Blizzard COUNTERsued MDY after the idiot sued Blizzard for banning users of his program.  On top of that, it's not like Blizzard is going after some guy that wrote a workaround and then was freely distributing it.  MDY is selling Glider licenses for use by players.  So, he's making money off of the violations as well as inducing others in breaching a contract.

 

As i see it, why is it wrong that he's askin money for his script/software when people use it at their own risk, i understand MDY's case had no leg to stand on but neither does blizzards.
In my eyes it would be the same as takin Nero to court for sellin software thats being used to copy copyright licenced cd's.

or Microsoft because media player has a rip cd function in it, using it is at your own risk.

Place the label of cheat on what is really just a MOD to a game software and the taint of a suspected criminal conduct begins to develop. The people who bought this developer's MOD did so at their own risk. That the developer was foolish enough to throw away his hard earned income by sueing Blizzard shows that yep he brought the counersuit on himself. I wonder if the attorney he contected about his desire to put a stop to Blizzard's banning of his cutomers explained that part to him.

And what about countries (in Europe, Germany for example) where said EULA is void by legal definition?

It's not a mod, it's an external program which plays the game for people, thus allowing them a significant advantage since they can leave it playing 24/7.

Please avoid any Blizzard-bashing, guys. They've got every right to stop this kind of stuff in their game, and as a player I'm glad for that. Let's keep the discussion to the judge's descision, which is the real issue here.

"The user already owns a legally purchased copy"

Well, when we buy software we are purchasing the right to use it. The dev/publisher still owns it. We simply by a license. This guy obviously broke the EULA so his license is void. On a broader scale, the EULA has been broken by everyone that has used the cheat. Blizzard can't sue 100 or 1000 or 10,000 people so they are going after the developer.

Copyright is a huge chunk of law. WAAAY beyond the simply act of copying something. I don't play WoW or know how this app works, but my guess is that it was engineered to take advantage of WoW in one way or another. Basically the cheater has attacked the brand. That is probably why its turning into a copyright case. And under copyright law it can have a harsher judgement than the breaking of the EULA.

knee deep in poo is absolutely right.

BigDogBigFeet ....more correctly think of it as a game of Poker....and all is honky-dory until you find one of your fellow players has a few extra aces up his sleeve.

Yeah, right....you're going to be all touchy-feely and mushy-happy over that one.

It'd be fine if WoW was played solo and offline...do what you like with it....it's as clever as cheating at solitaire.

As soon as it impacts on others' enjoyment through co-operative role-playing games like WoW...and you come armed with extra aces.....prepare to die....;)

Part of the problem is that the judge's descision doesn't really apply to the maker, but to the people using it.

Of course. My point is that the only "copy" in the user's posession is a legitimate and authorized one, and that nothing that can honestly be called a copy as per Copyright Act s.106 (which the judge cited) is created in the use of the software, so the judge's ruling has no merit.

Using a program you haven't paid for (piracy) is copyright infringement, since that generally requires you to have an illegetimate copy of the media. Using a paid-for copy in a way contrary to the EULA however can be no more than a breach of contract.

in reading the WoW agreement...

Ownership.
^broken. Here are the trademark issues I'm sure.

Limitations on Your Use of the Service.
^broken. They say dont cheat.

Rules of Conduct. Section C Part 1.
^broken. They spell out that you cant tamper with the game in case you missed it under Limitations.

Acknowledgments.
^again states that Blizzard has rights over the 3rd party app.

Equitable Remedies.
In the event that you breach this Agreement, you hereby agree that Blizzard would be irreparably damaged if this Agreement were not specifically enforced, and therefore you agree that Blizzard shall be entitled, without bond, other security, or proof of damages, to appropriate equitable remedies with respect to breaches of this Agreement, in addition to such other remedies as Blizzard may otherwise have available to it under applicable laws.

^This is a big sentence, so I will summarize. Here is your "knee deep in poo". This gives them the ability to come get you for screwing with their universe. And they should.

Go get 'em Blizzard.

Here's a thought.

The 'bot' plays the game for you, however it was you who 'agreed' to the EULA...not the bot.  Ergo the bot has no right to be playing the game as it did not indicate tacit agreement to the EULA....;)

AND he's selling it, too....

This bloke is screwed.

If he is not then the US Legal system is more screwed than most people imagine.

There IS no positive legal/defensible spin that can be placed on what his proggy does.

It's actually not a Game Cheat...such as being Invincible in Quake and beating your computer bots.  It's a method to defraud/deny others of THEIR game enjoyment that they paid for...with a reasonable expectation of equitable treatment.

I'm on Blizzard's side....100%...;)

Yep. The judge on the other hand...

First of all, im not bashing Blizzard, im just thinkin...



Thats what im sayin, the people using it know what they are doing, and they now its cheating.
and cheaters should and will allways be kicked!

However i dont see how people can be punished outside the game for this.
Just ban the users using it and as u can have only one account per serial key the users, once banned, need to buy a new copy of the game.

Imagine havin to pay a fine for cheating in a game, its insane!

And the poker example is different, there u can actually win REAL money so you really loose.
Yet still, i dont know of any country's where you can be taken to trail for cheating in a poker game, get my drift?



Now it looks more like Blizzard is trying to state something with the couter trail, and if that is saying to their customers don't cheat or we will discontinue our service with you seems only fair to me.





Now i play wow myself, and ive been banned myself once.
for 72 hours because i was raping the king of stormwind.
I was just standing there, dancing with the kids face in my croch, it was hilarious.
but some kid started wining so i started to rape him, and he called in a GM.
Now i didn't know what a GM looked like back then nor that they even existed so i started to rape the GM as the n44b that i was.
-by the way i was drunk at the time -
Looking back this was seriously misbehaviour and breach of the terms that i signed for using their service and blizzard is fully within their right.
Just keep the punishments ingame, if u get banned, u loose ur serial or existence within the world and will have to take on a new identity/serial to get back in.
and 30 euro's to get back in is expensive enough + having to level again is enough of a punishment on its own me thinks.
and after getting banned 3 times u'll think again.

Blizzard should just create a bot or program of themselves to search out people using this bot en implement this in a patch or something.

And there, in a nutshell is why I have exactly ZERO interest in playing WoW or any other online role-playing game.

Z. E. R. O.

None.

I'm sorry but, I don't get it. What's the big deal it's a game. If some people use such a device as a Bot software MOD, so what? They'll be ranked #14 and I'll only be able to reach #79. So what?

Furthermore Blizzard has a remedy for this sort of thing already. It's stipulated by Blizzard as to what the consequences are for the offending party in such a circumstance they get their services revoked.

There has to be real negligence or criminal intent on the part of this software developer what is it? It gives some player an unfair advantage? They acheive a higher ranking and are harder to beat? Again it's a game.

If it caused harm to peoples computers or blocked other registered users from using the service or damaged Blizzard's software in some clear way then that would be different. I still believe the onus, legally, is on those who made an agreement with Blizzard to not modify the software.

I'm free to modify with scripts and so forth on my own PC how windows functions without incurring any type of license infraction.

I think that's what I've been trying to indicate. What's the real harm? And, what is the proof of either negligence or criminal conduct on the part of the developer. Secondly, in my opinion the only people who might have a legal action against the developer are those who bought his product but, only if he mislead them in some material way.

Very interesting discussion you kicked up, Kryo. I'd like to hear more from the active folks here in response pndrev's very good question about the reasonablity (or lack thereof) of EULAs as we tolerate them here in the US.

IMO, shrink-wrap contracts, I Agree buttons, etc., all serve to undermine the essence of contract law. If there is no mutal moment when parties to the contract sign it in each other's presence or the prescence of notaries, then it is more poo than law.

Let me clarify the legal situation. The EULA roughly translates to the German 'AGB', which basically tell you when and how much warranty you get, what sort of damages are not covered, rights for usage, etc.

§§307-309 BGB state that
1) certain clauses within the AGB are always void, if they conflict with existing law. In that case either the clause is voided completely, or the corresponding law is applied.
2) AGB are void entirely, if they are not presented PRIOR TO SIGNING THE CONTRACT. That means the checkout at the store. That's why German stores always have a sheet of paper with their AGB hanging at the counter.

§307 is interesting in particular:


It basically means the seller can't use the AGB (EULA) to gain an unfair advantage. They are also void if they are overly complicated.

Given the fact that EULA are presented not only after buying the software, but also after voiding the warranty (German law also says you can't return software once the seal is breached - although most stores are lenient since they want to keep their customers) AND in some cases gives the seller rights far beyond anything acceptable, I'm pretty confident that the EULA in about 80% of the software I buy is void.

I'm also sure that I don't have the time and money to actually go to court over that, though.

But Blizzard is not a German company, so the reverse should hold true in that they don't have to worry about German laws applying to them. They have a EULA they follow, and playing the game is an agreement to that EULA. Insisting that the EULA is void is a double edged sword - it may free you from your part of the contract, but then by default it also frees Blizzard from theirs which means they can do with your account whatever they please

So what?

It's a multi-effing-million-dollar industry/game/company whose product is being misused to their financial detriment.

What's the big deal with Skinners works being ripped?  It's just a hobby/diversion some say of no actual function/purpose.

Who gives a toss that some old dead fart's painting got stolen or forged?....it's just oil on canvas...does nothing other than make a wall less blank.

Closer analogy....who cares if someone in the theater audience lights up a smoke...answers his phone and decides to continue that argument with his wife....loudly?  It's just a film.

Ennui and/or indifference/ignorance doesn't make the issue null and void...;)

Amen



As to the topic. I can see Kryo's point here. Court-rulings tend to create/change the law as they set a precedent and writing and selling a helper-program should not become a crime.
Blizzard can (and should) still ban anyone using the program.

When making references to 'clarifying the legal situation' the use of the phrase 'roughly translates' won't be appropriate.

You'd by definition need to be somewhat less 'rough' ....;)

I'll throw this into the mix, since we started going into international laws.

This year, ArenaNet/NCSoft segregated the entire Taiwanese player population in Guild Wars because of a law passed there that made it impossible to suspend/ban anyone engaged in gold farming and real money trading.

Source.

Should all companies start doing that, then, if a few countries decide to declare all their EULAs void?

aufisch...in this case it should....as the use of the 'helper' affects others.  This is third-party injury...;)

Not easy to formulate this in a foreign language...

You bought the software in Germany. Blizzard HAS a German distribution centre, believe me. They have German support hotlines. The software is used in Germany.

Therefore they have to adhere to German laws. Otherwise just about every company could do whatever they want.

"Cars? Who needs German restrictions, we're a British company."
Sorry, if you sell products and have a local representation, the laws are in effect. You can see that in the gaming / movie sector and the sometimes vastly different age ratings.





The roughness is mostly caused by the fact that I can't express the legal stuff adequately in English. Also, I clarified it in the sense that my former statements were even rougher and there seemed to be an interest in what I meant specifically.


Let me add that in this case, I completely understand Blizzard. I just wanted to point out to those fixated on the EULA that this American law isn't in effect everywhere else on the globe.