What am I doing wrong? 1.04 - hard setting - getting PUMMELED.

from Sins Forums

So I was looking forward to 1.04, however when I started a new large map (Twin Empires) with all hard opponents I was just stomped on from the start.  Here is how I played it, could I have done something different/better?

- Playing as Vasari -

1.  Started building Capital Ship refinery first, then setup my mines.
2.  Made two scout ships while refinery was being built.
3.  Built Intelligence structure (whatever that is called) so I could get access to skill to colonize Ice/Volcano planet when I discovered it.
4.  Built colonizing Capital ship first, sent it to nearest planet (Ice this time)
5.  Built second Intelligence structure, began researching Ice colonization.
6.  Built 3 skirmisher frigates to support Capital ship.

So I nab that planet, start building up it's population, etc..  Then I take an asteroid, same deal.  I fortify the asteroid with defenses as it's a chokepoint then try and get another planet under my belt so I can start working on trade and building up my fleet.

Once I get that planet, and by this time my first planet is pretty maxed out, and my second planet is getting there, I am still limited to one capital ship and a small fleet due to expansion. 

I have fended off minor attacks from one AI but then I start just getting HAMMERED.  I have fleets 2x my size with 2-3 capital ships coming at me.  My lone capital ship gets blown up, I have only basic fighters and those rocket frigates but they don't do anything to the forces I face.  I lose that third planet despite my best efforts and a good defensive structure (9 turrets, 3 regeneration bays)  So I fall back to my asteroid which is maxed out with planetary defenses. 

2 AI's team up and attack, so I have 4 capital ships vs. my single level one capital ship that I managed to build and just a couple frigates because I am dirt poor at this point. 

The Capital ship gets blown up and I realize the game is essentially over due to the odds I face.


So what did I do wrong / could have done better?  I couldn't ramp up my diplomacy fast enough to get a cease fire going, and I wasn't very powerful to the point where I should have been ganged up on? 




So then I started a normal game, same map, and just steam-rolled it.  It was so easy I didn't even need to fortify most things, was easy to build up diplomacy and conquer basically at will.   I even played Advent which I haven't played really at all, and had zero problem cleaning house.


Why is Hard so much 'harder' than normal?  I'm not a totally poor player, but I just got SPANKED and was hoping for some pointers?
28,017 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
The way I play as the Vasari is that the best defense is having a strong offense. Constantly pushing the fleet supply to its cap and just chaining from planet to planet and building phase stabilizers on each planet. This way if a problem arises I can warp the massive fleet straight to where they need to be.

Playing that way Unfair AI still isn't any bit of a challenge, no Dark Armada mind you. After getting the first half of the fleet maxed out as an attack force only then do I start making a secondary force to act as the primary defensive force. The game really requires you to keep expanding and avoiding turtling otherwise the economy grows stagnant.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
That's great late game, but I got trounced and called it quits with 4 planets (3 planets and one asteroid) under my control. Right off the bat I was allied against and swamped with attacks even though I had good defenses and was progressing as fast as I could sustain it with my economy. :(
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Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
If your Vasari don't be researching up just build one weapon lab and then pump out a big fleet of assilants. Go and harass the AI. When you have them on the back foot then you can empire up a bit.
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
hmhm..

1: ure to strong, ai's wil team up on you
2: if your noy experienced enoguh to face unfair ai's dont take them
3: from what i read ure focussing to much on defenses, y they are cheap.. but stationary.. and even ai isnt dumb enough to stay in range (sow theyer only good to AID your fleet)

4: the only thing u have to upgrade at start is infrastructure... dont even ry to build bunkers and all that useless stuff.. u'll only want to do that mid to late game

5: if ai has 3 capitals your doing something seriously wrong, you might be to slow, meaning ai alreayd has 5 planets or so when u have your third

6: ai might be set on Rushing AI.. means he will invest 75% of his money on wiping u out asap
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
I think your #1 problem is that you went after the ice first. Colonizing the asteroid first is much cheaper, and if you luck out and it has 2 metal and 2 crystal, it helps a lot with your income. Going ice first means you have to wait a long time to get enough crystal first for the research, then for population upgrades on just one paltry mine at your homeworld. Not to mention an ice needs 2 pop upgrades at least, while an asteroid only needs one.

As a rule, I always go for asteroids first and if you have 2 crystal mines on it, it almost triples your crystal income for a very small investment.

I usually build 2 civic labs as well because there tend to be ice/volcanics close by, but as Vasari if there aren't, it's usually better to get started on military early, because Vasari culture is tier 3, and Trade is tier 4. With TEC and Advent if you don't have ice/volcanics close, the labs aren't wasted because TEC gets tradeports and Advent gets broadcast center with 2 labs, and Vasari is stuck until you build a third.
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Hrm I'll try breaking down how I go about games.

1. Capital Factory, picking the colonize cap ship
2. Build 2-3 scouts depending on how many phase lanes are going out from my planet
3. Buy 100 crystal and get the infrastructure on the home planet
4. Build mines
5. Look at the map and find the asteroid nearby, send the capital ship there alone
6. Start making light frigates
7. Infrastructure on the asteroid, followed by mines when credits become available
8. Look at the map a bit and determine where the scouts have found the enemies home planets
9. Start placing two civilian research structures at the home planet
10. Expand to the next closest planet to my home planet going toward the enemies home planet, sending the cap ship alone again, followed by the light frigates after the cap ship is already at the planet (helps to prevent losses to the frigates)
11. Research the respective tech for the planet I have the fleet at, this normally finishes the tech just as they're finishing off the remaining forces at the planet
12. If there's a planet yet between the newly colonized world and the enemies home planet send the cap ship there alone again followed by frigates (if not, just send everything at their home planet)
13. Start researching trade and increased fleet supply
14. Continue with the frigate pumping as often as possible
15. Place trade up at each planet as credits become available, even if it means halting frigate production (by now you usually have a half beaten cap ship, level 3 in most cases, and 20+ frigates anyway)

It all becomes situational from there. But I try going straight for the enemies home planet during my expansion phase. The sooner you can be harassing their home planet the better as it cuts back on their expansion since they'll now send everything they have back home to defend. Building research stations any earlier I find is just a waste as I don't even do any of the research right away.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Thanks for the tips I'll try it again tonight and see how I fare.

Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
To me, the mistake is in research.

The Vasari LRM type ship is 1 weapons lab away (IIRC), which you could have gotten to instead. Those things are MUCH heavier hitters then the skirmishers.

Arctic colonization is expensive, best to pick it up later.
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Come on people it a strategy game let the NEWBIE figure it out. That half the fun. Actually that is all the fun. :CONGRAT:
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
Come on people it a strategy game let the NEWBIE figure it out. That half the fun. Actually that is all the fun.


Not that much of a newbie, the strategies are different when you start tackling a ton of hard AI's.

I enjoy a challenge so I always play with teams unlocked and active pirates. Pre 1.04 however, my strategies even on hard were working well...

No worries, I'll give it another shot and see how I fare.

I LOVE a good challenge.
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
informative thread, ty for the advise guys.
Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top
It doesn't sound like the OP has much of a general strategy.

What I mean is, "tech to boost economy" or "those two capital ships that work well together out of the gate asap to establish a front line" or even "tech to carrier".

What I would suggest is trying a few different strat's and see how they work out.

I've now started making lists of things I've tried and different combos to think about how they have worked. Trying and failing is all part of that.

Like BowAndHammer said, no easy answers, just point them in the direction and let them have fun figuring it out :CONGRAT:
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
You might want to lock the AI's to their own team so they can't decide to ally against you. Once you win a game like that, then think about playing with them unlocked
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
With vasari, it's resources before fleet. Your ships, in the begining are really strong comparetively that you don't need a lot of ships(8+1 cap). If you can hold off maximizing fleet, past the first or second research level, for the first hour of the game you will win. STOCK pile. Draw attention to other players.

Being adaptive verse offensive with the vasari works out better than offensive. Leave offensive to players that have cheaper ships(advent).