Empire Given up... (gripe)

from GalCiv2 Forums
Ok, this is more of a disappointment in the AI and thusly a gripe more than anything. Many on here have reported similar behaviour, but I thought I add another log to the fire.

So was playing a custom race on a gigantic galaxy in challenging mode. I started in a corner but had plenty of colonies to play with. I raced up the tech trees and maintained a tech lead the entire duration of the game. My nearest contact was a full 7 sectors away in the mostly center part of the galaxy- the Iconians.

Time passes and everyone knows everyone. The Iconians and I are like blood brothers. We are equal on every level except tech, but there are close second thanks to my generous side. The Altarians are losing a war to the Drengins and finally give up everything to the Torians. This was huge. The Torians were already the largest civ in the game and now they nearly doubled their population. The former Altarian worlds and the Iconian sovereign space are woven tightly together... but the Torians look at the Iconian worlds with envy.

Eventually, the Iconian-Torian War errupts in the center of the galaxy. By this time, I had forged an alliance with the Iconians and the Drengin. I was sitting fine. The Torians were (prior to the Altarian fall) too far to worry about, and the Yor didn't like me because I wouldn't give them stuff every third week they asked for it! Many of the minor races had fallen, and even my Iconian allies took out two minors that I was very fond of.

At first the war was clear a war of minor attrition as the Torians had numbers, by the Iconians had good Necromonger (my race) tech! That was until to key Iconian worlds fell. It was like the Torians found a friggin' monolith. They adapted very well and with the financial backing they had (they were nearly double the second place civ in population... thems a lot of taxes!), they didn't miss a beat taking it to the Iconians. Recognizing the threat of Torian dominance if I didn't assist the Icons, I stepped in. Strange though... the Iconians never ONCE asked me for help and I was an Ally...

Obviously, I had a lot of aces up my sleeve thanks to my superior tech level and I easily cleared out all Torian encroachment into the Iconian zone and the former Altarian zone. I quickly went from number 5 on the power list to number 2. At this point, the Drengin and I had a very sweet tech trade thing going. They seemed to be researching all the stuff I wasn't, and vice versa. So things were well... or so it seemed. Apparently, the Drengin had been trading even MORE heavily to the Torian!

The War continued and I begin plans to strike into the Torian home systems. I had setup a network of military starbases outfitted with speed boosts (all overlapping) that created a virtual "highway" to the Torian systems some 10 sectors away. Combined with having the max engine tech... getting there was not going to be a problem... however, the Torian battleships and Dreadnaughts that started showing up WERE a problem. They quickly could overcome my high tech ships with sheer numbers and raw power. I needed peace... and needed it fast.

I had previously turned down the Torian peace talks the 3 times they asked for it... but I was winning, and my goal to push them out of the center was not yet achieved at the time! Now that I saw nothing but a military stalemate ahead and was willing to talk... they wouldn't listen. How clearly the tables turned! Greatness.

I managed to buy peace however, but I envisioned it as only a cease fire while I ramped up even MORE tech and shifted back into a wartime economy to pump out my new fleet designs. Then the unexpected... the Iconians new there was no hope in fighting the Torians on their own and gave up... the THE YOR!!! This where I was left with a "wtf?!?" expression on my face.

And here is the gripe: why did the Iconians surrender to a race they're BARELY even trading with? Why did they NOT surrender to the Torian (they would-be victors) or me (their only Ally and one time saviour)??? I mean, I went to war FOR them when they didn't even asked. I liberated 2 of their planets and pushed ALL of the TOrian immediate threats to them 8 sectors away.
All but ONE of my 15 trading routes was with them. We had been allies for a considerable time (nearly half the game) and I had GIVEN them so much free stuff, it would make other leaders cry!!!
WHY!?!?! It doesn't make any sense. The Yor were merely bystanders at this point, they weren't leading in any category, they weren't at war or even neutral to anyone (they were friendly or close to everyone,) and they certainly didn't come to bat for the Iconians... oh, then there is the little matter of the Iconians being thrown off their planet by the Yor! (Granted, typically, backstory plays no part in sandbox games.)

I'm just seeing a trend on this whole "we surrender" thing... it appears to be random. And that's not a good thing. The AI's decision should be based on something. And in this case there were 2 choices ONLY to surrender to (IMO): the Torian as their conquerors, or me as their allies and previous saviour.

Thoughts? Similar experiences?
22,166 views 18 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hmmm, I guess you have a point there. The surrendering system has some problems. Not the whole surrendering part, just the reason they surrender to someone instead of someone else. In my latest game my allies actually surrendered to me, but that rarely happens, I concur.
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Maybe they wanted to distract the Torians with the Yor and buy you time?Nah I'm crazy.That said I'm used to blowing planets up with the Terror Star in GC1.
Fences - Organize your desktop icons today!
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Were you of exactly the same ethical alignment as the Iconians? This plays a big part in surrender decisions in my experience.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
the only 2 choices are surrendering to the torians or (joining)someone else, to you surendering doesnt make sense - allies dont surrender to each other
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The whole surrender thing is one of the most agravating things about this game. If you're conquering a race, you should get their surrender. It seems totally random.
Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

It's not random.  They will tend to go with the strongest player, failing that they will tend to go with who is beating them into submission and failing that they'll surrender to a friend.

But there are other factors too, moral alignment, position, etc.  All magnify these odds.

Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I just played a game last night and the same thing happened...everyone surrendered to anyone but me! I certainly wasn't the strongest but they didn't seem to surrender to the strongest. At times I was the one beating them into submission but like I said that didn't cause them to surrender to me (in fact, NEVER has a race whom I'm beating the tar out of surrendered to me, always to someone else). And other times I was allied and still the would surrender to someone else. I honestly assumed that the game was programed so as to never let the AI surrender to the human player to add a little more difficulty. I hadn't minded it till last night. Before last night I hadn't lost a game (only played about 9 games so far and only 1 on intelligent level), but last night the surrender thing ended up costing me the game. No biggie, but I would agree with CmdrHarker that it didn't seem to make much sense.

And, if Frogboy does come back to this thread, let me add my congrats to him and his crew on a great game. I haven't bought a game without reading reviews in a LONG time but after visiting this forum in the weeks preceeding the release I decided to buy when it was released. Like I said, the game is fantastic, but it is the support (and the respect of treating me like a paying customer by not using invasive "copy protection") that has made me buy this game for 2 of my friends and will have me pre-ordering the next game!
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

It's not random. They will tend to go with the strongest player, failing that they will tend to go with who is beating them into submission and failing that they'll surrender to a friend.

But there are other factors too, moral alignment, position, etc. All magnify these odds.


Frogboy, do you think that perhaps it can be looked at to changing this order to so that surrending to an Ally is first, then Conqueror, etc. ? I mean, because in the situation I described above, the Torian were the strongest AND the conqueror, so I mostly thought for sure that if they did give up, it would be to them. But going to the Yor, the 2nd place CiV, seemed like quite a curve ball.


And to answer the alignment question, the Iconians and I were both Neutral, leaning evil. WHere as the Yor, Torians, and Drengin ALL were Evil. The only good races were stamped out quickly.
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
in fact, NEVER has a race whom I'm beating the tar out of surrendered to me, always to someone else

It happend to me in my first GC2 sandbox game (medium abundant, all players, painfull - full AI), and IIRC it was also the first time in ALL GC games I played.
Arceans were my northern neighbour, but with only 3 planets quite weak to my 4 good ones and 4 smaller ones. Then all of a sudden they started planting influence starbases in the middle of my space. I got really annoyed, but in the diplomacy window there's no possibility to tell them to stop, remove or destroy those SBs. My demand to give them to me failed, and I started a war by destroying a couple of their constructors heading in my space. After some struggle with heavy fighters (mine were my first design just to bring up my mil score - 3 lasers, nothing else) I fielded 8 mediums with 5 lasers and 2 shields. I got 2 of them nearly destroyed in initiall attacks, but 've managed to
destroy all of his attacking, and a bit later most of his defending ships. I invaded his smallest one planet (size 5), but I got bad combat draw and needed 2 transports for it. Calculating the costs for taking his other two planets (about 10B pop each) made me shiver. I just couldn't afford losing so much pop - only 2 planets were at about 10B at that time. However after I destroyed the defending fleet on their HW, they surrendered to me. OFC they were beaten militarily, but they still had 2 full planets I couldn't take easily. With this event my civ became the biggest in the universe. I quit, feeing a bit disaponted. Too easy...

I would surrender to my attacker only after I'd lost MOST of my planets (about 3/4), when my surrender wouldn't change things so radicaly. So early I'd rather surrender to my opponent's enemy, to balance the game.
BR, Iztok

Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Ah yes, I think you have a point on the amount of planets left. In my game, when the Altarians surrendered to the Torian, they handed over 15ish planets... that's a lot of friggin' worlds!!!

When the Iconians went to the Yor they had easily a dozen planets.

And I tried going the influence route, but at this point in the game, where all the Civs are rocking across the board, it is VERY tough to convince the people of your opponents worlds that yours are better. I planted 3 fully loaded INF bases in a nest of Torian planets (about 6 in total.) All the bases were overlaping each other, so each planets was getting hit by at least 2 of the influence radi... And nothing happened for the rest of the game (about another 20-30 turns.)

Finally, I forged an alliance with the Torian after some rather give-up trades and game over; I had already become allied with the Yor and Drengin.

It was a great game with a let-down ending. Had the Iconians surrendered to me or the Torians, it certainly would have gone differently.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
That's why I like surgical strikes...sure they are expensive and take a lot of time to set up,but wiping an entire civ in a couple of turns is sweeeeet.
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Let's define POWER as a matter of population, military and economy:

a) IF surrendering to my most hated ENEMY will make them much more powerful than he already is AND
b) IF surrendering to my closest ALLY will make him get more powerful than my most hated enemy or at least it will make him get closer to him in POWER, THEN surrender to closest ALLY.
c) IF NOT try calculating for second closest ALLY.

I think that would make more sense.

Let's see the WWII example: Suppose England knows it will be defeated by 1942 and decide to not keep fighting anymore. Germany would not give them a peace treaty and will keep attacking. England can choose surrender to US because that will help them defeat Germany. But England is too far from US and Germany is pratically in their door already. In that case the logical decision is to surrender to Germany.

But suppose US is located in Europe (funny thought eh?) close to both Germany and England. In that case surrendering to US makes sense (If the US manages to put troops and weapons there fast enough).
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Surrendering to an ally who is also at war with the same civ thats killing you makes no sense, your still going to get killed just under a different flag. That said once when I was going for a influence victory the Iconians who were my close friends and at war with three other races (one of which I was at war with as well) surrendered to me and since they had 5 heavily populated worlds my influence spread to the point where I won an influnce victory......I don't know if the AI knew his surrender meant he was handing me (..us ) a victory but i like to think he did.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
To be clear, I had made peace with the Torians when this happened.

Adgral, using your example where the Iconians where the British, Torians are Germans, and I was the US... then t would be like British surrendering themselves to a neutral country... say Switzerland (debates aside on that topic.)
There's a nice thought...
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
lol ppl dont understand the definition of surrendering, england cant surrender to an allie....

imho races should only be able to surrender to the ppl they are at war with.
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

imho races should only be able to surrender to the ppl they are at war with.


COMPLETELY agree. There should be no dang choice, except for the case when they're at war with multiple races. Then it's simply choosing the strongest race to surrender to. It's the only logical choice.

The only time to surrender to someone not involved is if you immediately want them targeted.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I third that motion. The only reason for a civ to give up sovereignty would be to avoid mass death. Is there precedent for anything else?
Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
You guys are missing the most important point. It's all about keeping the game "challenging" during the middle and end game. What good is it to surrender to YOU when you are winning or even losing. It's about you overcoming the "challenge". Even in games where I play with other people, even when I have an ally, it's just for MY benefit, even though I know when they ally it's for THEIR benefit. Nobody allies in a wargame for the sake of the OTHER guy. Even as an ally I'll do everything to ruin you eventually and if that means surrendering to someone else I'd do that also. Though I tend to surrender to the underdog, but, if I'm tired of the game I might just lose over to the top dog to get that game over with so we can start another. In AOE it was like this if I knew I wasn't going to win, I'd try and make sure someone near me didn't either. lol