hadifa I segest you look into the manual, you'll see the COM's just use better algorithms than they once did. They turn down their income to produce ships faster. eventually with the colonization boom they'd be earning some good money and have an outstanding production rate. since they get the same bon uses as you I segest you try thinking of new ways to start your games, you might find you have an advantage yourself in the long run.

If you also look at their moral support you'll find coms don't have my concern for it. check your popularity rating compared to theirs. I think you'll find that so will be around the 60 mark. it's just enough to keep their party in on an election and good enough to pull them out of a total uprise. That means they have higher taxes, leads on to better production funds and bam, there's your 200% output.

Guys, thanks for the replys. It was a long shot on my part asking with limited info. Maybe I 'll go back and have a look at that particular game again though I think I have overwritten the save.

Can anyone else verify this. I'm not sure if this was the case. They were very powerfull and I had a difficult time catching up evern with cheats?

I'm playing the game on one difficulty lower than tough(Challenging?) on an immense map (Rare hapitable) with 9 other races and only Drengin is an average threat and even that, is because they got lucky by having some good planets just next to their capital. What I'm trying to say is that I was totally outpaced by the (tough) difficulty while I am comfortably ahead of the (Challenging).

Since I was the one who said it I'll check it out, though it will have to be tonight before I get a chance. I don't have high esp. level in my game yet with the Ais to look at the planet directly without spys.

I am starting to wonder if they changed something with the 2.0 update on DA, because right now I am seeing normal output levels barely better than my own by looking using spys and this is obscene AI. In the past I used to see ex:400mil, 300Soc. 300Res. or some such and now a developed AI homeworld is only showing me less than 100 in all categories and less than 50 in most. Now I'm curious myself . This is my first game back and with 2.0 after a few month hiatus(Though for DA, the passive spying seems to be the only thing that made it into 2.0).

I have found a save game and checkd the values carefully while having the comments here in mind.What I found out was unexpected.

First, you were right on the values shown from Agents. I planted a few agents and when I reached a higher level in espionage, I could see the real values, which were realistic this time around. Thanks for that.

However, that doesn't mean the AI is not doing something INTERESTING behind the scene.

I checked the timeline <F6> for various values to see how the AI is doing. The 3 AIs started with Economic at over 200 and at turn 60 they where at 800, while I started at around zero and at turn 60 I was about 200!

My population was more than any of them by about %20 and I had the tax at %49 at turn 60
I had 7 trade routes which was more than any of the other civs. They had 4, 4 and 2 trade routs.
I was behind in research as well by quite a bit. They had about 3 times my research. Nevertheless, this didn’t seem unnatural since they had invested in labs quite a bit and the civ with highest research had a +%700 research tile in the capital.

The other timelines were competitive. I was ahead in some and behind in others but the margines were not as big as the eco or research.

How can you start the eco with about 200 a turn? Little population in the beginning and no trade. ( I'm not sure if trade is counted towards the economy)

Considering their population was the same as mine, they couldn't have taxed them %100, and even if they did, with the small population you start with, you can't gain much anyway. Even if all 3 other civs had abilities that helped eco, they can't start with 200 even if their eco is +%400

Since Stardock and everyone says tough doesn't cheat, then it should be that way, but can someone with more experience point out a possibility for starting with and maintaining what seems to be a magical economy?

does anyone find that if you focus on Economy before Military you become more stable in the long run? I was just playing a game the other day with the korx trying to get some economical experience and I found that they weren't too shabby. I was quiet interested to find that a strong economy benefits you in diplomacy aswell as millitary, treasury, production and influence (from a 3rd way point of veiw). it's true money makes the world go round.

I can't say I blame the races of the universe for sucking up to the Richer races. Nor can I blame the number 1 race for demanding obscene amounts of money from them. Different areas of focus yeild different results, maybe your cheating com players have different bonus's or different ways of approaching the start.

This AI does not cheat at this level. You just don't know how to play. Every game I play at this level I get way ahead of the ai in economy and research and only lag behind in military/industrial/social production as I'm getting ahead in the main catagories. Then when I am so far ahead I turn to military production and reap the rewards of being the most advanced civ on the map as every AI will buy my techs from me and bow to my power as my military climbs way above the rest. Learn how to build up your planets, focus is the key as I'll have one focus industrial planet and one focused military planet and build up research and economical features first. So, nope no cheating by this ai, it's a good ai and I'm very impressed how it "tries" to deal with my power once I get to the action part of the game.

Also the demo doesn't have the latest COM Player scripting, It is likely that the demo's Ai's are dumb compared to the latest games which enforce a very smart AI. By the way, an AI knows where all the resources and stuff are because they build many scout ships during the colonization rush. reveils the map early on and leaves them at tactical advantage over those who didn't scout. revealing the location to vital resources and planets.