alexander_west

Join Date 03/2006

An AI based solution to the Technology Trading problem

The option to disable technology trading is a "kludge", a stop-gap measure to solve a problem that we all acknowledge undermines game challenge. In the last patch, the AI started charging more for some weapons technologies, and this definitely feels like a step in the right direction. I would like to propose the following additions to the AI in order to solve the technology trading issue, which I think is consistent with how Stardock would like to challenge players:

1. The player (and AI) races should have a counter that tracks the average number of times it sells any given technology it obtains.

2. When an AI sells a technology to the player (or another AI), it should charge a multiple of the base value of the technology based on the value of the counter. Thus, if a buyer race usually sells technologies to 3 other races, the seller race will charge 4x (400%) of the value of the technology. In this way, profit on technology trading will no longer be a landslide, but will instead be determined by small differences in Diplomacy skill.

3. Some AI players (certainly the Terrans, possibly others with strong Diplomacy) should evaluate whether they can make profit buying and re-selling other races (or just their own!) technologies. If they can buy and re-sell a technology for profit on any given turn, they will buy and re-sell every technology that would be profitable to them.

4. When the AI offers a technology trade with another player, it should balance out the value of the trade in BC, either asking for BC from the target race or offering extra BC itself. The AI often offers to trade technologies of greater value for technologies of lesser value, which it should not.

5. Technologies with Galactic Achievements or Trade Goods tied to them should not be traded by most AIs until that AI has built the Achievement or the Trade Good.

There are more steps to be taken which could hone AI technology exchange further, but I think the initial steps of charging more to players who rapidly re-sell technology, and creating AI players who competitively employ the same tactic will make the AI players competitive, and remove the need for anyone to disable the technology trading feature. Other ideas:

6. If the player regularly trades technology to an AI that the AI is hostile to, the AI might issue a warning not to do so any longer the first time, and refuse to trade with the player on subsequent occasions.

7. If the AI has a strongly positive cash flow (i.e. doesn't really need the BC), it might decide not to trade any technology which it is the sole possessor of.

8. Aside from very basic technologies, or once the AI has a stable cash flow, the AI might decide not to trade with races of a different ethical alignment, or who aren't allies.

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Great ideas, and all definately doable. I'm looking forward to future patches where the AI is smarter in how it handles tech trading.

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I would like to say I do not think this is such a grave problem that it undermines the game challenge. Does it need tweaking? Sure, but it is not the killer that some make it out to be IMO.

I read a lot of stuff about this before I purchased the game several weeks ago - and I must admit I was expecting the worst - but I was pleasantly surprised. There is no huge tech trade avalanche so far in my games - (playing at intelligent level) not compared to Civ3 for example where you had to trade a tech all around or next turn every AI would have it.

On the contrary, I have been able to selectively trade - and I can hold techs for a good long while and they are still tradable as many Ai's do not have them, even though a few do. Eventually the techs do get around - but heck, that is part of the game - trading. And I get a lot of techs from espionage too - don't forget the AI uses that too, so it is not all trading.

This AI trades more intelligently than most other games that use this mechanism. Can it be improved? Heck yeah. The op does have some good ideas that should be discussed - kudos for not just dissing the ai and not giving ideas to improve it.

One tweak I feel that is needed so far is being addressed in the 1.1beta patches - the fact that the Ai will eventually trade away weapons so they all are eventually using the same stuff.

Can the trade system be exploited? Sure it can - eventually the top players will figure out a way to do that - and it will be for the players to decide if they want to use an exploit or if they consider it cheese - but for the average gamer out there, I do not see it as the game killing problem some claim, merely one that can be improved upon.

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Oldstatesman

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In the last patch, the AI started charging more for some weapons technologies, and this definitely feels like a step in the right direction.

I completely disagree with that point, but I like many of your ideas. It would be nice for the AI to trade things for their own benifit. (Which they do for the most part.) Although I do think that they can trade for a tech that is less valuable if they are desperate for it.

As I have stated many times, I like this game mainly becuase Diplomacy is an actually viable option, unlike the completely nerfed diplomacy in the Civilization series.

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*numbers refer to points in the OP*
1-2 ) This is bad idea. There are no profits (well no huge ones if you play on hard difficulties). What little you can eke out I say is fair game. Up your diff.

3) Promoting tech trading this may be good (IF YOU ALLOW TRADING AT ALL). Sorry it's a grudge I have against the no tech traders.

4) I believe it (the AI) generally does so. I believe there's also this feeling that if it offers a deal you can't refuse most times it will get the tech it (the offering AI) wants.

5) I've not looked into this but certainly on certain difficulty levels and up. EASY levels its supposed to do dumb things.

6) This adds a level of depth that is not there, certainly. I will of course bring up trade embargos, though this is different. IF you want to stay my friend you won't deal with techs to my enemies...

7 -8) I disagree with this one. or maybe add some caveats.. will only trade if same alignment to help a brother/sister out.
Since I like you more than the others, etc..

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Those are all very good ideas, except the mulitplier one. I have no doubt that the AI will get smart about tech trading with every patch.

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The AI might take into consideration how many other civs have the tech in question. Supply and demand... If everyone is able to give the last civ the tech, why shouldn't they sell it cheap? After all, if you don't, there's guaranteed to be someone else who will take the petty cash. Thus, as the player whores away a given tech, (s)he will get diminishing value for each civ traded with.

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How too form alliance? i really want too know how.

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You have to have "close" relationship first and then alliance will appear as an option in the diplomacy screen.

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I've said this before but really there are two problems with tech trading as I see it:

1) It's really easy to exploit the AI with tech trading.

2) The only effective strategy is that every one has to sell on all their tech every turn. Because if you don't sell it then someone else will, and you can't out research all other races combined

Both are a problem: 1) because it's an easy exploit 2) because players might not want to trade tech all their tech, and it makes research quite useless.

The solution proposed might help solve problem 1) but really the only way to solve problem 2) is to have an option to disable tech trading. Because if any kind of tech trading is allowed then the best strategy is to tech trade as much as possible

Interesting ideas though, I especially like the idea that races will get unhappy if you sell tech to their enemy, which should probably be dependent on their esponiage level

Erik92: You need to research it in the tech tree and then you need to get another race to really really like you, for example by bribery, and then the option to suggest an alliance will appear

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I'm one of the people that hate so much the tech trading in this game, and now i'm very happy about no tech trading option(but diplomacy is broken).In my opinion the problem of tech trading in this game is due to some factors:
-tech tree is so large that you have always a technology that other races don't have, so you can always trade a more valuable tech for a lesser one to continue the cycle of tech trading every turn.Personally with recent patches it's a lot more difficult to trade but it hasn't resolved the problem that you are forced to trade technologies every turn: i have tried not to tech technology to any civ and in the midgame i had a gap of nearly 20 techs

-another problem is that you can trade techs with races that you have very bad relations (it's a bit changed in the last BETA but not solved) personally i think that tech trading should be allowed only if relations between races are really friendly
-a suggestion very smart was that you could only trade techs that you have discovered.In my opinion this would be the best solution between diplomacy and research because you have to think more about what you trade and what you research and finally not all techs would be tradable between races so there would be a greater differentiation about what techs have all the races.
-as often suggested a diplomatic modifier like in civ4 "you have traded with my worst enemy", or "you refused to help me" should be added and taken in account not only in diplomattic relations but also for tech trading; clearly AI should be able to evaluate all this factors

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I think this is quite obviouisly the simplest and best solution. When a race is buying or selling a tech, it should consider the value of the tech to be inversely related to the number of civilizations that have it. (value/n, where n is the number of civs with the tech)

This would remove any possibility of exploitation.

- Fragsworth

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Fragsworth: I was thinking about valuing technology inversely depending on how many races have it. However, if it were worth a multiple based on the number of races that had it, you could make a lot of money selling it, because each race would pay a premium for the other races that it had not been sold to yet. For example, if a technology were worth a 200% of its value to the first buyer, and 150% of its value to the second buyer, that still means that the seller was able to gain 350% of the value of their technology for just selling it twice. Essentially, if the premium is just tied to the number of races that have it, it could increase the problem of technology trading rather than decreasing it.

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