Mistwraithe

Join Date 05/2003

+20

0.981c Bugs, UI Issues and Suggestions

I've played one game now and have two main things to say:

1. The game is becoming both great fun and rather addictive.

2. The game is a long way from being stable, polished and balanced.

Unfortunately I'm really under the gun this week and don't have time to tidy up this list of problems so I'll just regurgitate them in the order I wrote them down. My impression here is that some of the UI issues I have pointed out may not have been mentioned to Stardock yet (or maybe I've just missed the threads, I only browse). I've deleted a couple of my problems which are well known problems (eg not meeting AI even after walking all around their capital).

Create Sovereign screen still doesn't tell what the factions REALLY offer in terms of bonuses/weaknesses. This is such a major problem, particularly for new players, that I just can't believe it hasn't been fixed yet!
Create Faction screen still doesn't tell you what bonuses/weaknesses the race will give you. Perhaps not quite as bad as the lack of Faction info but almost!
I still find Enchanters (or whatever it is that gives access to Tomes and Scrying Pools) the best trait (alongside the scouting one). Maybe just because I like magic. And combining Betrayers with Great Leader (or whatever gives free hero recruitment) is a little broken, although at least it is limited by available experience.
Cast Enchanted Hammers on capital while it is selected, the production doesn't go up/build time go down until I resellect - should refresh display immediately.
Is there a problem with the random treasure generator? 3 of my first 5 treasures were hate stones.
Save game screen, hitting enter key should save and close.
There is weird stuff going on with loading auto saves, units start with no movement in places they shouldn't be unless they have movement, etc.
Furthermore if you do a few loads in a row you can usually crash the game to desktop. Basically I've got no confidence in the save/load mechanics, it seems to me like it is often saving a snapshot half way between this turn and the next. This is obviously a serious problem which is likely to get mentioned in game reviews!
Poison doesn't seem to proc properly - when is it meant to happen? I had two poisoned ruffians on 1 HP both take their turn and attack me without dying.
Getting fed up with sharp daggers too. I now have 4 sharp daggers and 4 hate stones out of about 14 pick ups.
It doesn't appear that any construction overflows. This is annoying and rewards micromanagement of tax rates etc to avoid wasted production. Most strategy games are doing overflow these days and it avoids silly micro. I suggest allow up to one single turn's worth of production to overflow.
The unit hover summary in the Train menu needs to have the unit maintenance listed. (actually I guess you can click on the unit and then get it in the bottom summary but still a little annoying).
Why would anyone buy scouts? Give them an extra movement point perhaps, or the ability to build outposts.
Borders fairly commonly stuff up and drawing weird lines joining up cities which are not actually close to adjacent.
Monsters pretty much never seem to destroy AI outposts or towns. Or pioneers for that matter. I'm watching Altar here btw, they don't have the scout ability do they? Further more I've also noticed that the two dragons that Altar has disturbed with outposts always beeline to me whenever one of my heroes is in sight, completely ignoring Altar's sov and two outposts. Yay, I finally saw a monster take out an AI, a group of scouts got owned by a forest drake. But even so the overall behaviour is extremely annoying, the AI settles or outposts beside monsters which starts them roaming free then they virtually always seem to chase after the player!
Why do the conclave/town/fortress options rearrange themselves in the city upgrade UI? Seems to be trying to catch the user out. Make them alphabetical if you don't have any other way of ordering them.
Why does the AI settle a 4/2/0 when there is a 4/2/1 just two squares away and plainly visible? (what was particularly insulting is that it was also right beside a big ogre which of course then wandered off to attack me rather than attacking the town built adjacent to it. I tried the same 10 turns earlier beside a bear and spiders which instanatly both attacked next turn (fortunately I had my sov there to defend)).
Army summaries should not total armour of all units in the army. Either use the average or the maximum value.
After reloading can't see any of the shrines etc that you have discovered that are in fog of war. This is really annoying.
Blindness is a somewhat ridiculous spell, because low accuracy can easily cause perma misses. Make it a straight 50% chance of miss maybe. BTW is it meant to also make you lose your counter attack with a sword? Seemed to to me.
When the I declare war button is greyed out there is no explanation of why, would be nice to have a hint (in this case was due to non aggression pact I think which I could at least see on governer screen, but couldn't see from diplomacy).
Hitting the space bar should just mark the unit as not wanting to move further it shouldn't actually take away its moves and make it unable to move!
When an item is picked up the screen doesn't show the unit picking it up, it can show anything else, in fact it will often deliberately scroll away from the item picking things up. The same applies to the quest popup.
Weird things happen with movement. I have clicked on a troll I want to attack but don't have enough move to get there. So I hit turn. Immediately it says I am under attack from the troll. I auto resolve and my guy is now standing where the troll was with 2/4 movement but can't move at all! (which is definitely a bug) Surely I should be where I was at the end of the last turn with 4/4 anyway?
If I click the explore button with no movement points then my hero shows ... for where he plans to move next turn. I don't really want him to explore so I right click to give him new orders and they go away. But then next turn he starts exploring where he originally wanted to go anyway! Then he keeps deciding to go exploring again regardless of what orders I give him. OK a few turns later I worked this out, Explore mode is a toggle, but the button caption and state doesn't change so no way of knowing. The button needs to push down and stay down while in Explore mode, and it also needs to be cancelled whenever the unit gets manual orders.
I think buildings are taking too long to complete now, it shouldn't be easy to build everything but right now I'm struggling to even build the bare essentials.
The interface is way too subtle with some things such as selecting units. I've played numerous RTS games and all the FE betas but I still sometimes end up moving only one unit when I wanted to move the whole stack. Most recently this happened because I selected a stack containing two heroes, cast a spell buffing one of them, then immediately I moved, and only the buffed hero moved. At no point did I say I only wanted to select one of them, I presume the action of casting the buff spell did that? I've had similar things happen when trading items between heroes etc.
I have one hero capable of casting burning blade, it seems he can cast it multiple times per turn? (Strategic map). I thought each hero could only cast once per turn?
Make it cost 20% extra to buy an item at another players shop (perhaps no penalty if allied). Currently there is little reason to research horses since a friend usually will.
Is it deliberate that when you kill an ogre on an ogre lair the squares around it get 3 essence? Don't get me wrong it is very cool for builder types like me and I very much like being able to build cities that actually have decent essence, but it doesn't make much sense to me (perhaps I just don't know the lore about Ogres being magical creatures?).
Monument is both a building giving +1 zoc and an improvement on a place of influence.
Can't interupt movement of current unit, attempting to do so by giving new orders while moving will just give those orders to the next unit!
Building an offer in the diplomacy screen, added 1 warfare to their offer, then 7 magic tech from mine, then 5 civ tech from theirs, then wanted to remove the 1 warfare tech from the deal but couldn't work out how to. Had to restart the whole deal.
I attacked a horde of darklings, auto resolved and the darklings moved to a different adjacent square before all falling over dead.
If you go into the shop screen and click the sell button without thinking it immediately sells a weapon. This can really suck if you only have one weapon and quite liked it. Not cool.
One of my cities with two clay quarries going to it only showed 1 on the materials hint, but I think it did get the benefit of both.
Had an outpost swap hands a few times, at the end I had it and it showed an air altar as not finished (6 turns to go) but it didn't show in queue of the city. There doesn't seem to be anyway of cancelling it either, it is stuck in limbo. This is incredibly annoying as you can imagine
Close battle against enemy heroes, right down to the wire, then their sovereign backs off one square in last round of battle and does nothing (no spells), making an easy kill. Both my last two heroes were one hit from death!
Ash Dragon did fear on me but on none of my heroes could I see what the effect of fear actually was (I tried selecting and going into the detail screen which showed my buff spells on them but not fear)
AI built an outpost on top of a quest location (refugee camp). Surely that shouldn't be possible? It made it impossible to do the quest.
20 gold for killing an ashwake dragon is a bit underwhelming!
Think I had two city level ups happen on the same turn. I remember being rather puzzled because it was focusing a different part of the map, but the city name listed was definitely the one I wanted to be a fortress so I did that. However a few turns later I realised another city which I wanted to be a conclave was also a fortress. Either it took the same answer for both cities OR I just thought the first click didn't work and clicked again (in which case the map focus didn't change, but I wouldn't have expected it to because it was already pointing at the second city).
The new tax system needs more work, it seems like Low tax is now mandatory and anything above Low has severely diminishing returns and should be avoided. If the goal was to make the question of where to set the tax slider more interesting then it was a complete failure, but possibly with more balancing and tweaking the numbers it could work.
Heroes are leveling a little bit too slow now I think, it was taking a great deal of effort to get past level 9. However I realise this is tied into key balance issues so just giving my feedback, heroes are a bit less fun right now.
Most outpost upgrades are pointless. Only High Tower and Consulate are useful (and Consulate seems a bit cheesy).

Thanks!

Locked Post +1 Karma

Advanced Search

Watch this post

Do not email me updates for this post Email me updates for this post

Successfully updated karma reason!

BernieTime

cardinaldirection

Join Date 08/2012

+18

Is there a problem with the random treasure generator? 3 of my first 5 treasures were hate stones.

I've run into this as well, even saving and restarting at times in order to re-roll the dice. Something does seem to be amiss.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Very well written, this should be pinned

Successfully updated karma reason!

Arrrrh too long for my birdbrain, but what I read I either wasn't completely agreeing with, or it was spot on!.

Overall a very good post, could have use a slight amount of editing to space things out, sort up from bugs/yays/features as the fantastic Firefly does (In another thread on the forum).

Still GJ and thanks for your comments

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Successfully updated karma reason!

I've been complaining about your references to the AI activities for many builds now....

Monsters pretty much never seem to destroy AI outposts or towns. Or pioneers for that matter. I'm watching Altar here btw, they don't have the scout ability do they? Further more I've also noticed that the two dragons that Altar has disturbed with outposts always beeline to me whenever one of my heroes is in sight, completely ignoring Altar's sov and two outposts. Yay, I finally saw a monster take out an AI, a group of scouts got owned by a forest drake. But even so the overall behaviour is extremely annoying, the AI settles or outposts beside monsters which starts them roaming free then they virtually always seem to chase after the player!

Why does the AI settle a 4/2/0 when there is a 4/2/1 just two squares away and plainly visible? (what was particularly insulting is that it was also right beside a big ogre which of course then wandered off to attack me rather than attacking the town built adjacent to it. I tried the same 10 turns earlier beside a bear and spiders which instanatly both attacked next turn (fortunately I had my sov there to defend)).

Successfully updated karma reason!

Any chance you can change the theme music, it's getting on my nerves now?

Successfully updated karma reason!

BernieTime

Join Date 10/2009

+10

Well done on the list. +1 to you

Successfully updated karma reason!

Thanks for the positive comments guys. I really apologise for the poor formatting of my original post, I knew at the time it would be much nicer if I grouped things better but I really am short of spare time this week - maybe I'll go back and tidy it up some lunchtime.

Anyway below are further comments from later in that game. I'm still enjoying it but I am finding the game 'slow' to play, not because my computer is slow but because there seems to be a lot of overhead in getting things done. I think some of the UI issues that I'm raising (and possibly some I haven't stepped back far enough to identify) are contributing to this feel of having to baby my heroes/cities around.

I have a path of the governor hero in a city which gives it +2 growth. This seems to work mechanically but both the Govern City List and the quick city summary in the bottom left when on the strategic map show the growth without this bonus loading the game.
The new city list is much improved over the old one (yay for having production listed!). However it would be nice if it showed population too, I occasionally want to see how close my cities are to levelling.
I read somewhere that it was now possible to build forest and river dependent buildings if your city grew to the point where it touched one. However this doesn't seem to be the case for me - just vicious rumour or am I doing it wrong?
Chaos seems a pointless spell, weak damage, weak slow, weak everything. Anyone able to prove me wrong?
Turns out that when I said in my first post I couldn't build an air altar after an outpost changed hands it was actually queued on a different city from the one that the interface and the ...'s showed. This city eventually built it but the interface should be fixed to point to the correct city doing the building (which was actually further away) in this case.
Something strange going on with unrest. Had a city with 4 essence, unrest popup showed +22 taxes, +15 not contiguous capital, -20 cleric, -20 town hall, which should all be correct. Yet the actual unrest was showing as 2% (should be 0%) and prod/research were down by the 2%. Some other factor at play?
I told a hero with 2 move from a city to move to an adjacent city about 10 squares away. It disembarked from the current city from a corner which was in the forest taking a further 3 movement points before it reached the road, when it could have just got out on the road and moved 2 squares on the road to reach the same point those 3 movement points would reach. This sort of thing just irritates and annoys in a game which should be fun.
Why does the AI just leave treasure chests scattered around? Perhaps it is by design to make things interesting for the player but if so it would fit better if it left the monsters there too, right now it is obvious the AI is deliberately leaving stuff for the player and that is strange.
If you create a trade treaty in diplomacy screen I think it says what the benefit to each faction is, but if AI proposes one you don't get to see before accepting. Would be really nice to get the same info.
There are two Kingdom's of Altar in my game, one lead by Relias and one lead by Lady Irane... is that normal? I can't remember if Lady Irane is a leader I made up which might explain it but either way it is very confusing, they have the same faction name, colour and symbol. Perhaps game generation should avoid this happening?
It is a bit annoying that you can't separate a unit with 0 move left out from an army (even into just the same square, I would prefer the separate button didn't move to be honest). Because of this if you have a 5 move hero stacked with a 2 move unit and suddenly decide the hero needs to get somewhere in a hurry, he has to spend the next turn moving 2 still before he can go up to 5 move. Annoying and unnecessary, again these sorts of things make the game seem unpolished and consume the players time trying to micromanage around.
Does anyone NOT pick Oracle as level 3 upgrade for Conclaves? I don't know what the answer is because I like having as much essence as possible so I don't really want you to remove it but there seems little reason to pick anything else.
Weird stuff going on with city defenders, archers have 24HP, I do 19 damage, they then say 11 out of 24. Happened twice in two different battles. Similarly city militia with 35 hp take 15 damage, then says 30/35! Furthermore despite taking 15 out of what appears to have been really 45 damage none of the 5 figures fell over. No spells shown as active on the militia.
The AI are building things in their cities very fast, way faster than I can on Expert. Possibly they just managed to get slightly bigger cities faster than me and have a small difficultly level bonus but the difference seems fairly big.
Is there any way of telling how close enemies are getting to winning via spell of making etc?
Monsters are becoming a joke, I've been avoiding settling an Apiary near Magnar for ages because of the forest drake beside it. Magnar finally gets there and puts down an outpost, then the forest drake gets up and walks 15 squares to my land. To be fair they usually just chase my units around (I try to make sure I never end turn adjacent to them) and rarely destroy that much of mine but it still seems cheatsome...
One of my heroes got told to leave Yithril's land and was then placed in a path with mountains on one side, water on the other and AI cities at either end. No way out? Sucks to be her, I guess she stays until I declare war on Yithril?

Thanks again!

Successfully updated karma reason!

I'll have to check if I get time to start FE again this week... assuming I can check, it doesn't seem easy to find out a good list of faction info.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Mistwraithe,

reply 9

Actually it occurs to me that maybe the Altar I was watching DOES have the scout ability if it is a custom faction I made ages ago and then forgot about (as I said above there are two Altar factions in the current game).

I'll have to check if I get time to start FE again this week... assuming I can check, it doesn't seem easy to find out a good list of faction info.

Master Scouts should not affect cities or outposts... should

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Successfully updated karma reason!

cardinaldirection

Join Date 08/2012

+18

Quoting Mistwraithe,

reply 9

Any custom factions, sovs, and units you create may potentially be used by the AI. I personally love designing my enemies as much as myself.

Successfully updated karma reason!

OK, well the Altar who was annoying me by not getting attacked was in fact Lady Irane who, as we all know, is the built in Tarth leader, and has the Scouts ability so maybe that is acceptable.

BUT in that case I would like to register a new bug:

Why is Lady Irane, the Tarth leader, in charge of a faction called Altar with the Altar symbol and Altar colour? And in the same game as another Altar faction with the same symbol and colour led by Lord Relias? I have created say half a dozen custom leaders but I haven't messed with any of the built in ones. BTW Lady Irane's Altar faction has also built cities with the names Athica and Avalan which I think are Altar names?

Successfully updated karma reason!

Quoting Mistwraithe,

reply 12

OK, well the Altar who was annoying me by not getting attacked was in fact Lady Irane who, as we all know, is the built in Tarth leader, and has the Scouts ability so maybe that is acceptable.

BUT in that case I would like to register a new bug:

Why is Lady Irane, the Tarth leader, in charge of a faction called Altar with the Altar symbol and Altar colour? And in the same game as another Altar faction with the same symbol and colour led by Lord Relias? I have created say half a dozen custom leaders but I haven't messed with any of the built in ones. BTW Lady Irane's Altar faction has also built cities with the names Athica and Avalan which I think are Altar names?

this sounds like bad/out of date data to me... at some point if you can try wiping your fallen enchantress directory in "my games" (saves, custom faction, custom units ect) I would imagine it would fix it... If not then I'm stumped... The game should not be mixing and matching sovereigns with other factions on its own (all Sovereigns are tied to a single faction in their definition/creation). You can change it but it would require going into their XML

Successfully updated karma reason!

Fair enough. I think I reinstalled FE about beta 3 (because the update from beta 2 failed) and I've never applied any mods.

Note that the game still knows Lady Irane is the Tarth leader if I go into the New Game screen and it shows all the Tarth things you would expect. Maybe I will try starting a game myself as Lady Irane and see if I end up with Altar when the game starts? If not it would suggest that the data is pretty good and there might be some bug with the new game code picking factions.

I agree tho, if no one else has encountered this then it seems likely the data is somehow screwed up on my install.

Successfully updated karma reason!

My third installment of bugs and comments:

Cast Blessing of Restoration on a hero, he didn't show the spell in his detail screen, nor did it show in active enchantments list, but he could now cast heal. The spell info says there is a 1 mana maintenance cost, I can't easily tell if this is being charged or not.
Once I had cast Blessing of Restoration once I then couldn't cast it again... puzzling. This could be a feature instead of a bug but if so I think the spell description need to explain is going on.
Message boxes popup in random order, so completing a quest I get a message saying I've found a body behind a wall, only thing intact is plate mail, etc. Then after closing that behind it is a message about having defeated the guardians so now I can explore the tomb. That should have appeared first I assume. I also had 3 hero level ups interspersed with this (2 before everything else, 1 in between quest popups).
I really hate it when a city levels up but the map decides to focus elsewhere while the map popup is there. Means I have to go on name and the few stats shown to work out what I was building, would be nice to also be able to see where the city was!
Why when I tell my hero with 4 move to attack the unit directly in front of him 2 squares away does it sometimes decide to run 3 squares and move to flank the enemy from the side? This is odd at the best of times but disastrous when I've got a bottleneck I want to defend and my hero has just put himself in the bottleneck rather than on my side of it. To avoid I need to manually move my units then order attacks, which slows the game down. Please fix this.
I find it really annoying and immersion breaking that I'm better off giving my spell casters swords rather than ranged weapons (assuming I have mana for my spell casters to be casting spells). I understand you want ranged attacks to have slow initiative BUT collateral damage is everything else, including the rate of casting spells. This rules magic staffs out for my best spell casters which seems so against normal fantasy logic! I personally think spell casting should have its own initiative based on the spell cast and the capabilities (eg mastery, level, spell levels, whatever) instead of triggering off normal initiative. This would also fit spells like Fireball and Blizzard naturally, just give them a long casting time. However I realise it is probably too late for that no matter how much it would help the feel of the game.
Minor point but when a non aggression pact expires between the player and a much, much weaker AI (which has previously given me tribute) expires, it is not very wise of the AI to immediately demand the player to removes all units from its territory. It would be much smarter to request a renewal of the non aggression pact. My current game it was just easier to tell them the AI and wipe them off the planet than to bother redoing the non aggression pact myself.
I defeated the scrapyard wildlands, quite fun, tho a bit repetitive on the battles. However it would have been nicer if the revealed land had been a bit better, the best there was a 4/2/2 which is worth building on but only middling relative to the other cities I have. Its a wildlands, with some tough battles so moderately late game, let the player build a 4/3/3 or something a bit more interesting. (I'm completely underwhelmed by the wildling villages too but others have mentioned this)
Couldn't cloud walk to a square that was within the radius of one of my arcane monoliths. I got a message that the square needed to be empty, yet I could see the squares were empty and it said this for every single square. The area I was trying to teleport into was the ex scrap yard wildlands which was now settleable for me, maybe that has something to do with it? I actually had two arcane monoliths, one at each end of the wildlands, and I couldn't cloud walk into either.
Warlord Verga is coming for me and he's level 12, mmm could be interesting. Wait, he has 22 attack and 11 defence? That is hardly going to be difficult, enemy sovereigns need to toughen up more than that! This is turn 185 and Yithril are nominally winning fairly handsomely (by power).
OTOH Verga's army also has 9 move due to having 7 Tireless March spells stacked on him? This is a major bug, please fix, its crazy! His whole army moved 9 in tactical combat too...
I'm also very curious about how Verga reached my territory, I have a manned outpost blocking a 1 square mountain pass and the other way around is too far for even Mr 9-move-man to make it in one turn (not to mention the fact it is also blocked off by a river and one of my cities). So did he teleport somehow into my territory? Or is there a way of crossing water? I guess there is some explanation for this if no one else has experienced it, with 9 move he just needed a way of getting closish then he could get a long way into my territory.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2394

Thank you so much for taking the time to provide that feedback.

While I don't agree with some of the requests you made, I certainly like seeing other points of view on the matter.

The Troll lairs do indeed provide 1 essence in surrounding territory on purpose.

I think there is a lot of food for thought here in terms of post-release directions to take.

At this stage, we're focusing on remaining stability (mostly Windows XP at this stage), balance, AI tweaking, and cosmetic bugs.

I've got your post and follow-up printing.

Successfully updated karma reason!

Thanks for noticing .

Yes sorry everything is a bit mixed up and not nicely formatted, although having it in chronological order might help you understand where I am coming from with some of them. I'll wait with baited breath to see if any of my thoughts on balance or the UI make it through .

There are also a moderate number of probable bugs in my list but no doubt you'll be working through everyone's bug lists getting things tidied up for the release.

Cheers.

Successfully updated karma reason!

My final post in this series as I have now won the game:

Casting cloud walk on a hero sitting in a city seemed to really confuse the game, he disappeared from the city he had been in but didn't appear where he was meant to go either. No idea what happened to him, I reloaded.
When units are sitting in a city and one of them has Tireless March on it the spell has no effect until they leave the city (or alternatively it might affect the unit with the spell on it but none of the rest in the city). This might be minor but it is one of a number of small issues which are leading me fight the system and micro my units in order to keep things efficient (so for example I try avoid ending armies with Tireless March in cities).
Green enchantment sparkles on the strategic map often get left behind after a hero moves.
Level 4 town upgrades are pretty cool! At last goodies with some teeth. Governor's Office seemed fairly clearly the strongest for my large empire though.
Level 4 fortress upgrades all suck though. The Prison seems quite good but if a fortress has reached level 4 then it is probably my main fortress and the one which ideally I would like to reach level 5. Picking something which will lower growth is therefore a big negative. Gallows is completely pointless, any fortress which reaches level 4 is going to have some essence and 0 unrest due to shrines plus other buildings. That leaves mining guild which gives +1 metal. This is what I picked because at least it is a bonus but my empire makes +20 metal a turn and has 750 metal stored up already so it is a negligable bonus. IMO Prison needs to be -5 unrest everywhere but no growth penalty, and the other two options either need a big buff or rethinking.
Had an army with 3 heroes and brothers sparticus in it. 2 heroes had horses and the other two units had base move 2. However one of the mounted heroes had tireless march so the entire army had move 3. I moved 1 square into forest (ie 1/3 moves left) then attacked a city. I won the battle but after the battle the two move 2 units were standing where they were before the attack with 0/2 movement and the two mounted heroes were in the conquered city. They should have all be in the city with 0/3 moves.
When selecting multiple units in a city or stack I hold the shift key down and click on them. However while doing this the mouse moves very slowly and jumps back and forward by several pixels as it goes. Very odd, think it has done this for quite a number of betas now.
I won the game via spell of making. After going through the finish game screens (14000 score) I got back to the main menu to find that a city level up window popped up over it! I had to accept the city level up before I could see the credits window!
Should the AI have become concerned when I started casting the spell of making? I had already killed Yithril who had been my strongest rival (he declared war on me which was sensible but way too late for him to have any chance) and was completely dominant in real power but only slightly dominant in power ratings (about 10% more than my highest competitor) so I would have thought someone might have declared war. Instead they all quietly sat back and let me win. We did have trade treaties, does that stop them from declaring war?

Successfully updated karma reason!