taltamir

Join Date 01/2006

+34

The Collapse of the West

Rich countries are rich because of a successful culture. Nothing is stopping people from improving their own countries. Except many cultures do not show the respect to technology, industry, education and innovation needed to be successful.

This is part of the problem which the west in general (and the USA specifically) currently face.

The american PEOPLE no longer have respect towards capitalism, entrepreneurship, and industry. All three have become "evil" in their mind and must be destroyed. That is the root cause of the economic problems (the sub prime market, cap and trade, and the bailout are specific examples).

Things will only get worse without a change. We have a majority party that honestly represents the majority of citizens in its wish to destroy industry to save the planet (green delusions), destroy money because money is the root of all evil, destroy capitalism because capitalism is evil exploitative greed...

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Tal I don't believe we are quite there, even though it may appear so. Of the three things that you mention they (the ultra left) have little respect for (capitalism, entrepreneurship, and industry), there is one thing they hold in greater contempt: Following the same/solutions advice they give.

Most people in the US are content to just go with the flow, but there is a boiling point and the water is getting hot now. Even moderates left of center (those that believe wrong is wrong no matter who) are getting concerned about the "Hugo Chavez-like" tactics that are in play (industry take overs, enemies lists, and attempted manipulation of the media). It usually prevents things from sliding off the edge any one way.

I will contend that this effect is not necessarily for the better, as we can see what happened from the last administration to this one. Jumping from the frying pan into the fire never solves anything. Since there are only two main parties (for the moment) there are only two choices (especially if the extremists win their respective primaries).

The problem with the last election was Democrat voters didn't vet their candidate properly (that's right, we expect appointees to be properly vetted, but voters are just as guilty of "overlooking" potential problems). The warning signs should go way up if your candidate is a "rock star", promising everything to everyone, great at reading speech's or reciting slogans (or in the case of what we have now, all of the above). The Republicans were just as bad. So worried about a candidate appearing too much like Bush, instead of someone that espoused a return to conservative principles (which Bush abandoned and most US citizens consider themselves) and settling instead for an uninspired, mediocre candidate (I personally like McCain, but he was never up to the task). This primary system is at fault and the root of the problem. All primaries should be held the same day. Why should one or a few states set the mark for the rest of the country? In many cases the states that vote last have little or no impact on the outcome. Let the candidate make his/her case up front.

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From speaking to the average person on the street, it seems to me like what conservatives call "the fringe left" isn't actually fringe at all.

I would go as far as saying that the democrats honestly represent their constituents. The majority of people I talk to on the street believe money, capitalism and industry to be evil. And they WANT government redistribution of wealth, considering it "fair".

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There is a third certainty, beyond death and taxes: we'll get the country we collectively deserve. In general terms, talt is on to something, but the outcome (what we 'deserve') has yet to be settled.

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I would go as far as saying that the democrats honestly represent their constituents.

Do they?

They represent atheists, homosexuals, and abortion yet also claim to represent Blacks and Hispanics (after all the right are a bunch of racists) both very religious groups. We know how most Blacks voted during California's prop 8.

They support the anti war movement yet are (potentially) preparing to escalate a war.

They support health care reform, yet want to slash Medicare (to pay for heath care reform).

They say they want to keep Americans safe while they investigate those that did.

They say they want to make low income families pay less, yet they push cap and trade which will raise the price of energy sky high (and EVERYTHING energy produces or transports).

They support freedom and privacy while nationalizing businesses and financial institutions and censoring opposing views.

IMO they are a party of contradiction. They attempt to please everyone and end up pleasing no one. Government was never meant to be all things to everyone. This is why less is better (and cheaper too).

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kingbee

Join Date 04/2004

+42

The american PEOPLE no longer have respect towards capitalism, entrepreneurship, and industry.

this statement would more accurately apply to american citizens of the late 19th/early 20th century who found themselves in pretty much the same situation as those living today.

thanks to two roosevelts, their anger and frustration with unregulated capitalism were deferred for another what...four score and some years?

those who refuse to learn the lessons of history...

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I am an atheist and democrats do not represent me. And the represent the blacks and hispanics via entitlement programs.

They support the anti war movement yet are (potentially) preparing to escalate a war.

They only oppose wars against despots and tyrants. They have nothing against wars waged by tyrants and despots against free people.

They support health care reform, yet want to slash Medicare (to pay for heath care reform).

Most of their voters are young, and they don't want reform, they want more stuff for themselves... I have spoken with democrats who proclaimed their support to taking from the elderly and giving to themselves.

They say they want to keep Americans safe while they investigate those that did.

They live in a fantasy world disconnected from reality where free people owning weapons causes evil and instability, interrogating terrorists causes terrorism, and pretty speeches stop tyranny and evil. Both the leaders and the democrats on the street suffer from this form of insanity.

They say they want to make low income families pay less, yet they push cap and trade which will raise the price of energy sky high (and EVERYTHING energy produces or transports).

They live in fantasy world disconnected from reality.

They support freedom and privacy while nationalizing businesses and financial institutions and censoring opposing views.

When have the democrats ever supported freedom and privacy?

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the crux of it nitro cruiser, is that most of your arguments are:

they claim to be for X but do things that directly oppose X.

My argument is, they claim to be for X, are stupid and ignorant and think that things that directly oppose X actually support it. And Both the democrats in congress and the democrat on the street share that ignorance.

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I am an atheist and democrats do not represent me. And the represent the blacks and hispanics via entitlement programs.

I would never suggest this is the case 100% cut and dry. As long as Republicans are perceived to be Christian Fundamentalists (which is not the case, but implied by the far left) and the Democrat party supports the organizations that frequently challenge Christian issues, the folks that feel strongly for or against religious issues will, in many cases, be drawn to the respective parties. Not a big issue for some, myself included.

There are plenty of Black and Hispanic Republicans too, but the DNC takes the majority of these minorities for granted as members. They throw them a few entitlement programs and ensure their votes. The point I was making is that all these groups interests do not always compliment each other, and in some cases directly oppose each other.

When have the democrats ever supported freedom and privacy?

They were awfully angry about the Patriot Act, claiming it violated personal freedom... at least until Obama signed a virtually unchanged bill renewing it. Now... nary a peep.

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heh... when actually confronted about obama doing exactly what bush did... the typical response I get from democrats is "well, I guess it isn't as bad as I thought it was... but bush is still evil!"

The democrat on the street really believes that cap and trade will not harm the economy, that wealth redistribution will strengthen the economy, and that anyone with money has money because they cheated it out of hard working poor people (who are poor because they were cheated)

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heh... when actually confronted about obama doing exactly what bush did... the typical response I get from democrats is "well, I guess it isn't as bad as I thought it was... but bush is still evil!"

I've heard that too.

I agree in part. I believe there are some Dem's that might have got caught up in the moment, and realize now this is not what they signed up for. Things must be fix for everyones benefit, conservative and liberals, since neither group is going away anytime soon. I'm not entirely please by what the Republicans are showing me either, but IMO things are not going to improve until there is some sort of equilibrium in the government. People just seem to forget Clinton's presidency was a bust until the Republicans gain control of Congress in 1994, that save his political @ss.

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people in general seem to forget that the president does not make the law. Congress does.

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