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Dr Guy
Dr Guy
Join Date 09/2004
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When does a homo sapien get a soul?

Atheist need not respond

September 13, 2005 4:30:59 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Seriously, when does a homo sapien get a soul.  If you believe in souls, then at what point in the life cycle - conception to death - do they acquire a soul.  And how is it determined?

I know we (all here at JU) probably would like to argue that some never do (Gacy, Dahmer, Hitler, etc).  But according to your belief system, when does a homo sapien - the vessel - get a soul?

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Dr Guy
stutefish
Join Date 02/2005
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Reply #1 September 13, 2005 4:38:13 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I believe in souls.

I don't know when people get souls.

My scriptures imply that souls may actually exist before the body does--possibly even predating time itself--but that may be a matter of interpretation.

Logic suggests that a human's physical body is eligible for a soul from the moment it first exists as a human organism: i.e., immediately upon conception.

If souls really do exist, and "ensoulment" is a real event, the safest course of action for anyone truly concerned with preserving human life would probably be to assume that the organism is ensouled and fully human from the moment of conception onwards.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #2 September 13, 2005 4:42:28 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

My scriptures imply that souls may actually exist before the body does--possibly even predating time itself--but that may be a matter of interpretation.

Logic suggests that a human's physical body is eligible for a soul from the moment it first exists as a human organism: i.e., immediately upon conception.

ON the first line, Ok, that is one form, so let me clarify here.  When does the homo sapien DNA acquire a soul.

On the second line, you supplied the answer I was looking for from everyone. (not THE answer, but the answer to the question I was really asking).

Thanks.

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Dr Guy
shadesofgrey
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Reply #3 September 13, 2005 4:45:35 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Logic suggests that a human's physical body is eligible for a soul from the moment it first exists as a human organism: i.e., immediately upon conception.


But there is an early church belief that a human soul can not enter a body that is not fully formed.
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Reply #4 September 13, 2005 5:06:26 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
But there is an early church belief that a human soul can not enter a body that is not fully formed.

What church is that?

My vote: absolutely at conception. As stutefish said, it could be before that point... "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you..." (Jer. 1:5), but if you're talking physical DNA, that's my answer.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #5 September 13, 2005 5:07:06 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I agree with Stutefish, Christian scripture does imply that souls predate temporal bodies, but I'm just saying this to 2nd what Stutefish said, apparently you wanted a more specific event.

If you read in the account of Genesis where Adam's body was made from the dust of the earth, it wasn't until after that body was formed that "God breathed into him the breath of life", to that would imply that "life" begins at the first breath. at birth.

However, fetuses effect the exchange of gasses through the umbilicle cord and the semipermeable membrane in the placenta. Since "breathing" is the act of taking in and expelling gasses (as opposed to specifically taking air in and out through our noses), the minute a fetus begins that metabolic process could satisfy the "breathed into him the breath of life" description just as well.

For me, I believe that the spiritual definition of life is from when the soul and body join until the time they seperate... well, that pretty much tells you where I stand on the question... right? ;~D
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Dr Guy
shadesofgrey
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Reply #6 September 13, 2005 5:56:18 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
What church is that?


The Christian one (or, I suppose more accurately, the Catholic one).

The abortion debate was raging as early as 100 AD. The Didache, one of the earliest church documents condemns abortion, but asks two important questions. The first is whether or not the abortion is being used to conceal the sin of having sex, and the second is if the fetus has a "rational soul at the moment of conception or if it becomes an ensouled human later."

Later (around 300AD) the Apostolic Constitutions allowed abortions performed early in pregnancy--but prohibited it if the fetus contained a soul. Around the same time, St. Augustine wrote about the concept of "delayed ensoulment" (orginally a pagan greek belief) stating that a human soul could not live in an unformed body. Therefore, early in pregnancy the fetus does not have a human soul and therefore abortion does not destroy a soul and is not murder.

Around 700, it was considered a greater sin to have intercourse than to have an abortion. The penance for intercourse was seven years, while the penance for an abortion was only three and a half.

In the 1300, the Council of Vienne and St. Thomas Aquinas stated that abortion was a form of contraception and a sin against marriage, but it was not homicide because the fetus was not ensouled with a rational soul until the body was developed. (This is a simple run down of what he said, there's a lot more about vegetative souls and animal souls that is very interesting to read--if you want more, I can provide some links).

The punishment for abortion didn't become excommunication until the late 1500s, and then only lasted for three years(1588 until 1591). It was later revived in 1869. It was in 1869 that "immediate hominization" (hominization is when the fetus becomes human) was written into church law.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #7 September 13, 2005 5:59:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

But there is an early church belief that a human soul can not enter a body that is not fully formed.

Is that yours?

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Reply #8 September 13, 2005 6:00:14 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

My vote: absolutely at conception. As stutefish said, it could be before that point... "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you..." (Jer. 1:5), but if you're talking physical DNA, that's my answer.

Your answer is very gratefully accepted!  Thank you!

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shadesofgrey
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Reply #9 September 13, 2005 6:01:23 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Is that yours?


Is that my belief?

I think that greater people than me (St. Augustine, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas to name a few) have pondered this question and not come up with a definitive answer. Its not a question that I feel capable of answering.
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Reply #10 September 13, 2005 6:01:34 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

For me, I believe that the spiritual definition of life is from when the soul and body join until the time they seperate... well, that pretty much tells you where I stand on the question... right? ;~D

Not really.  Is that at birth?  Conception?  Viable? Fully Formed?

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Dr Guy
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Reply #11 September 13, 2005 6:03:27 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply By: shadesofgreyPosted: Tuesday, September 13, 2005

Thank you for all of that.  NOw can you take a stand on what you believe?

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Dr Guy
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Reply #12 September 13, 2005 6:05:19 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Is that my belief?

I think that greater people than me (St. Augustine, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas to name a few) have pondered this question and not come up with a definitive answer. Its not a question that I feel capable of answering.

No, you miss it.  This is not a definition.  It is Belief.  So yours is as good as anyones.  Really.  WHat DO YOU believe.  That is all this is about.

I am not arguing with anyone that believes in a soul.  That is not the purpose of this article.

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Dr Guy
dharmagrl
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Reply #13 September 13, 2005 6:28:39 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I believe that we all have souls. I believe that we are ensouled at the moment of conception.
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Dr Guy
bakerstreet
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Reply #14 September 13, 2005 7:15:06 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I would assume they get a soul the same time everyone else does, though theirs is more fashion conscious and apt for melodrama...

... oh, wait, homo SAPIENS.... never mind.
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Reply #15 September 13, 2005 7:24:02 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
soulssssssss for sale!!!!!!! I got em get em while there hot. soulsss for sale!!!
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Dr Guy
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Reply #16 September 13, 2005 7:29:21 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Every second Thursday, at 9:30 P.M. Bring cash. Don't be late.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #17 September 13, 2005 9:12:08 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

believe that we all have souls. I believe that we are ensouled at the moment of conception.

That is the best one!  Ensouled.  May I use that?  Thank you.

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Reply #18 September 13, 2005 9:13:25 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Reply By: BakerStreetPosted: Tuesday, September 13, 2005
I would assume they get a soul the same time everyone else does, though theirs is more fashion conscious and apt for melodrama...

... oh, wait, homo SAPIENS.... never mind.

Ok, thanks for the chuckle.  Now can you give me your belief?  No facts are accepted here. and all beliefs are equal per the conditions.

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Reply #19 September 13, 2005 9:14:15 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

soulssssssss for sale!!!!!!! I got em get em while there hot. soulsss for sale!!!

Ok, Lucifer!  Can we be serious?  Please?

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Reply #20 September 13, 2005 9:14:53 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Every second Thursday, at 9:30 P.M. Bring cash. Don't be late.

I got to get a new name so I can get some serious answers!

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Dr Guy
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Reply #21 September 13, 2005 9:24:46 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I got to get a new name so I can get some serious answers!


No, seriously, they're soule......sold cheap.

Your soul is who you are. You are your soul. That happens as soon as you begin to exist, right?

It's not an event that happens or an object which you recieve. I have to vote that it's as soon as you come into existence at conception.

Unless of course you want to follow the argument of prior existance. Which I don't. I believe that God creates them on the spot.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7
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Dr Guy
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Reply #22 September 13, 2005 9:26:50 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Of course, I left out - Look, became alive and a soul, all at one time.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #23 September 15, 2005 3:05:47 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Okay, from a very lapsed Roman Catholic, I thought I was given my soul when I was baptised. If this is the case, then I was about 7 months old before I got soul. Not that I actually believe it now. I mean I do believe we have a soul, of sorts. Its called our Buddha nature, if you believe as I do.
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Reply #24 September 15, 2005 7:22:36 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ensouled. May I use that?


Of course you can.
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Dr Guy
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Reply #25 September 15, 2005 7:37:11 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Okay, from a very lapsed Roman Catholic, I thought I was given my soul when I was baptised. If this is the case, then I was about 7 months old before I got soul.


I thought the Catholic catechism taught that every one's born with a soul, but that baptism is where it is first saved (in the case of infant baptism, by proxy) from hell. Which then has to be followed up for the rest of your life with confession, acts of contrition and the like to keep from going there.

Of course I could be wrong, I'm a Baptist.
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