Sirth

Join Date 12/2008

Titans, Ogrovs, and Adjudicators

I'm an older player of SOASE and Entrenchment. Haven't played in a while.

I recently bought Rebellion and played several SP games. All the new features are pretty cool. Don't have time for MP at the moment.

The Titans are a great idea; they are needed. Mind you, the game may focus around them perhaps too much. No doubt, there will be more Titan tweaking as player feedback continues to roll in. I propose that the TEC Ogrovs and Advent Adjudicators be given some new life by being able to target Titans. Perhaps a new research tech can be included to refit them with anti-titan warheads. Maybe even 1 sub-faction (loyalist or rebel) could get this tech.

I don't think these cruisers should do whopping dmg to Titans. Just a reasonable amount in support of a large fleet confronting an enemy Titan. Thoughts?

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GoaFan77

Join Date 10/2008

+629

It's been suggested multiple times, but I personally don't like the idea because the Vasari don't have and antistructure cruiser and because the Ogrov would be so much better than the adjudicator in an anti-titan role it wouldn't even be comparable. I agree with the route Stardock seems to be taking with making Corvettes the counter to titans, by making them immune to most titan ability attacks, though they seemed to miss some of the Vasari ones.

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The Titans might also deserve a slight speed decrease, or a turning speed decrease. Actually, I like the matter. Due to their mass, it would take enormous energy for them to quickly alter course.

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That would basically be a buff to TEC and not much else. Some quick running of the numbers shows that adjuncators would actually deal less DPS to titans then tools that can already hit them(such as LRM & bombers(- and frankly the adjucator's ability to hit multiple enemies isn't worth too much in terms of titans as the enemy only has one.

This idea has been proposed half a dozen times in the past, but it simply makes no sense to attempt to balance an overarching game issue with a change that only really helps a single faction.

Honestly if we want titans to be more counterable, I'd be more in favor of something along the lines of:

Increase corvette's dmg ratio to titans slightly(maybe to .75) and remove them from the targetting filters of the 2 remaining titan AoEs that can hit them(The Maw & desperation both on the Vorastra)

Corvettes & bombers are supposed to be the counters to titans- I don't think we so much need another, especially one who's mechanics vary as greatly from races to race as anti-structure frigates.

Also, I'd still like to see titans level a bit slower then they do now- increasing a titan's period of infancy & vulnerability would do a great deal to reduce their ability to render 80% of the game's frigates obsolete.

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I see your point, Bilun, and it's well said given the current status of the game.

The thing is, if there is a will to make Ogrevs and especially Adjudicators somewhat useful in confronting Titans, then it could be done reasonably.

For instance, I mentioned before that tech could be added to the game and thus researched for warheads specifically against Titans. It would take some minor programming changes, but it could be done. For instance, here's some examples.

Upgrade Tech for Adjudicator

Positronic Warhead: This is a special ability with a cool-down time. An Adjudicator cannot target an enemy Titan with its normal spray of anti-structure munitions. However, when this research upgrade is attained, the Adjudicator can fire 1 powerful Positronic Warhead at a Titan (and Titans alone). The warhead does a fair amount of damage to an enemy Titan's shields. When the Titan's shields are down, the warhead is of no more use.

Upgrade Tech for Ogrev

Nova-fire Torpedo: This is a special ability with a cool-down time. An Ogrev cannot target an enemy Titan with its normal nuclear torpedoes. When this research upgrade is attained, the Ogrev can fire 1 powerful Nova-fire Torpedo at an enemy Titan (and only a Titan). The torpedo cannot be fired when a Titan's shields are still up. When the shields fail, then the Ogrev can use this special attack. The Nova-fire only does hull damage to Titans.

How to implement these changes?

1. In the respective military tech trees, the new tech upgrade is placed somewhere to the right of the Ogrev and to the right of the Adjudicator.

2. A new game animation is made for the actual weapons in combat.

3. The basics of the weapon values are scripted in

4. The cool-downs are put in.

Then test, test, test....

Why do all this? It might be a step in the right direction for finding 'massed' and 'combined arms' mid-tech counters to high-tech super units. If some enemy builds a Titan and you're nowhere near getting one to counter it (for various good reasons, not dumb ones), the best counter shouldn't be massed corvettes and bombers alone. There should be numerous options. More options and counters are cool to have.

I'd also like to see a Vasari tech that would help to counter Titans too.

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ARESIV

Join Date 05/2011

+58

Quoting Sirth,

reply 5

I see your point, Bilun, and it's well said given the current status of the game.

The thing is, if there is a will to make Ogrevs and especially Adjudicators somewhat useful in confronting Titans, then it could be done reasonably.

For instance, I mentioned before that tech could be added to the game and thus researched for warheads specifically against Titans. It would take some minor programming changes, but it could be done. For instance, here's some examples.

Upgrade Tech for Adjudicator

Positronic Warhead: This is a special ability with a cool-down time. An Adjudicator cannot target an enemy Titan with its normal spray of anti-structure munitions. However, when this research upgrade is attained, the Adjudicator can fire 1 powerful Positronic Warhead at a Titan (and Titans alone). The warhead does a fair amount of damage to an enemy Titan's shields. When the Titan's shields are down, the warhead is of no more use.

Upgrade Tech for Ogrev

Nova-fire Torpedo: This is a special ability with a cool-down time. An Ogrev cannot target an enemy Titan with its normal nuclear torpedoes. When this research upgrade is attained, the Ogrev can fire 1 powerful Nova-fire Torpedo at an enemy Titan (and only a Titan). The torpedo cannot be fired when a Titan's shields are still up. When the shields fail, then the Ogrev can use this special attack. The Nova-fire only does hull damage to Titans.

How to implement these changes?

1. In the respective military tech trees, the new tech upgrade is placed somewhere to the right of the Ogrev and to the right of the Adjudicator.

2. A new game animation is made for the actual weapons in combat.

3. The basics of the weapon values are scripted in

4. The cool-downs are put in.

Then test, test, test....

Why do all this? It might be a step in the right direction for finding 'massed' and 'combined arms' mid-tech counters to high-tech super units. If some enemy builds a Titan and you're nowhere near getting one to counter it (for various good reasons, not dumb ones), the best counter shouldn't be massed corvettes and bombers alone. There should be numerous options. More options and counters are cool to have.

I'd also like to see a Vasari tech that would help to counter Titans too.

Nice idea, however your implemantation brings up more balancing issues:

Scenario 1: You are TEC

Enemy Titans are likey going to be: Advent, Vasari

Have fun trying to get the shields down on an Advent Titan.... no way to do that in reasonable time unless you are already far superior. Vasari dont have that bad shields, too. This would help most against TEC Titans....

Scenario 2: You are Advent:

Enemy Titans are likey going to be: TEC, Vasari

TEC Titan without shields = light scratch in the paint job.... the Ankylon rarely has it shields active because they are very weak compared to its hull power. This is similar to the Ragnarov.... with the difference that it is somewhat difficult to survive long enough against its onlsaught.

Vasari Titan without shields...... Second best shielding in the game.... very powerful weapons..... it is doable but it requires a lot of time.Time you likely dont have.

I like your weapon ideas, but they have to work both on shields and on hull... otherwise I see major balancing trouble.

The Vasari dont need an anti structure cruisers. Period. They Orkulus fills this role better than both Ogrov and Adjucator most of the time and it remains usefull afterwards. Add in phase missiles that make any other weapon upgrade in the game look pathetic and you have easily the best faction when it comes to dealing with enemy titans or other hard targets.

A late game Vasari fleet has little trouble in utterly decimating even a level 10 Eradica - which btw is somewhat overrated by now - with only moderate losses.

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Quoting ARESIV,

reply 6

I like your weapon ideas, but they have to work both on shields and on hull... otherwise I see major balancing trouble.

I think you may be right. The idea of 1 killing shields, the other killing hull, may be new and interesting. But it would be hell to balance. Given your examples and hull/shield math, the only other option I could present would be to reverse the upgrade techs to their respective factions. Also, a twist.

1. The TEC upgrade could gives Ogrevs x1 dmg vs shields and x0.5 vs hull.

2. The Advent upgrade could give Adjudicators x1 dmg vs hull and x0.5 vs shields.

Anyway, a disclaimer to anyone reading, the point is not make these cruisers into the #1 anti-Titan counters. That would suck. It's just to give them some more relevance, and offer them as yet another component in a player's bag of tricks (his combined arms fleet) to confront an enemy Titan. There will be points in a game when someone really beats you to the punch on building a Titan, or a period when you lose your Titan and the enemy still has his. There should be a lot you could do to recover, as opposed to only a very narrow range of options.

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Titans should be more like experimentals from SupCom. Powerful, but they can still be taken down by a reasonable yet large group of units and you aren't completely screwed if you lose it.

-Lord Brony

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regardless though, turning anti-structure frigates itno anti-titan ships really wouldn't do much as long as 2 titans are capable of instagibbing large portions of your fleet(high level ragnarov & Vorastra) and one titan puts out a steady stream of large widerange AoEs(Eradica).

Honestly as long as the main AOE tools on these titans is as effective as it is, no frigate that their AoEs can hit will ever really be an effective counter.

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Quoting bilun,

reply 9

Honestly as long as the main AOE tools on these titans is as effective as it is, no frigate that their AoEs can hit will ever really be an effective counter.

True enough. I agree. The main problem involves the Titans themselves, not the problem with available counters. I was just thinking that the anti-structure cruisers should at least do more damage specifically to Titans than the available Heavy Combat Cruisers (Kodiaks, Destras, Skarovas).

Quoting Oddski_Boddski,

reply 8

Titans should be more like experimentals from SupCom. Powerful, but they can still be taken down by a reasonable yet large group of units and you aren't completely screwed if you lose it.

-Lord Brony

I agree. I remember the Experimentals from Supcom. They were fun. They could cause a lot of havoc. They could be the crux of a game-winning offensive if used right. However, more often than not, the Experimentals just did a lot of damage before the enemy took it down. The enemy didn't require an Experimental as a counter, and it wasn't game over if they decided on using other groups of units. If I remember right, the Experimentals had weaknesses too. Subs could pound them in the water. And squadrons of planes, along with high-tech air defenses, could pound the blimpy one. All of them could be struck from afar too with super-range artillery.

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