WHAT?  That's not what Romans says and why did you skip over v2?  Read the whole three verses in context..1 2, 3!  Let's look at it closely shall we?

1:"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities.  For there is no authority except from God and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 

2:  Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordiance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

3:  For rulers are NOT a terror to good works, but to evil.  Do you want to be unafraid of the authority?  Do what is good and you will have praise from the same."

Where in God's name did you get that the government is a terror to good work from this?  See Lula, this is what you do to make the scripture say what you want it to say.  You skip and you twist to make it work for you.  It doesn't work that way. That's what Paul meant when he said "they twist the scripture to their own destruction."  Be careful. 

Rebellion against the authority implies rebellion against God's ordinance.  Even Jesus subjected himself to the governing authorities of his time which, in His case, meant death to an innocent. 

Leauki's right Lula.  Judism has ONLY suspended the sacrifices.  According to Jesus and the NT it's a done deal but NOT to the Jews.  They don't honor the NT and are awaiting for their temple to be rebuilt and the sacrifices to be reinstated.  I just sent you a link about this.  Didn't you read it?  Not only that but I told you (more than once...sigh) my Jewish teacher who goes over there twice a year (and has for over 35 years) keeps us up on what's going on over there.  They have everything ready to get this going again. 

It's like you puposely DON'T want to believe facts and would RATHER go on opinion instead.  That's why you're ignoring this.

Although Leauki I don't read the Talmud either although I do read quotes here and there as I study in depth.   I believe the OT is inspired but believe the Talmud as opinion, not inspired, by the Rabbis' over the centuries.  Much like the RCC has their tradition which is based mostly on opinion. 

Right on Leauki! 

Yes they did.  This is where Lula's right Leauki.  The early Christians were ALL Jews and they went to the entire OT and put the whole puzzle together especially Paul who was a Pharisee of Pharisees. He knew Judaism better than most if not all.  The mysteries of the OT came into view and he was able to put it togethr for the early Jewish Christians. 

It all came together for them in Christ.  Even when Christ died and after as he said "into your hands I commit my spirit" scripture says the unbelivers beat their breasts and cried out.  They realized then that He was the King they had been wanting to release them afterall. He was the OT future Prophet/King that they were to wait for.  They thought He was an imposter so He was put to death only for them to find out by watching the events of the cross that He was the genuine article after all. 

lula posts:

kfc posts:

kfc posts:

You are over reacting KFC.

I made a mistake....In my haste, I made a mistake. I should have written, "Christ said that government authority is subject to ALmighty God and they are NOT to be a terror to good...and allowing children to pray to God in school is a good work, and a government that removes or forbids that is being a terror to a good work."

The second part of what I wrote indicates that I have the correct understanding of Roman 13:1-3 in response to the video and Leuki's comment concerning it.

What I was pointing out here is a continuation of my previous posts.

lula 22

lula 35

Leauki,

Since Almighty God did make it known and I want to answer in a thorough fashion,  I responded to this question by posting a new article, entitled "The End of the Old Mosaic Sacrifices"

KFC,

I've already responded to this. See #54. And it's not only modern Jewry who believe this, Rapturists do too.

and Yes, thank you, I looked at your link.

 
You say, Jews. They .... are awaiting for their temple to be rebuilt and the sacrifices to be reinstated. ..... Not only that but I told you (more than once...sigh) my Jewish teacher who goes over there twice a year (and has for over 35 years) keeps us up on what's going on over there. They have everything ready to get this going again.

KFC,

read the prophecy of Malachias and understand that animal sacrifices can never be legitimate again.   

Seriously,  WHY WOULD ALMIGHTY GOD EVER, EVER ALLOW A RESUMPTION OF ANIMAL SACRIFICES ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF HIS SON'S FINAL SACRIFICE?

this has NOTHING to do with the Rapture.  It's totally a whole diff subject. 

I don't know what you're talking about.   Malachi is a mini summary of the entire OT.   Five truths are taught in Malachi

1.  Selection of Israel

2.  Transgression of Israel

3.  Manifesttion of the Messiah

4.  Tribulation upon nations

5.  Purification of Israel

Ask yourself that.  Every week when you go to Mass what are they doing?  They are sacrificing Christ over and over and over again.  Sure they're not killing animals but they are going thru a ritual where they are doing it sans animals. 

Also why does God allow alot of things?  What do you think Jesus meant when he said:

"When you shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place (whoso reads let him understand.)"  Matt 24:15

He was speaking about Daniel's prophecy (Chap9) when the Anti-Christ will put a stop to the sacrifices in the Temple (which will be built) so even Jesus is expecting this to happen.  He's telling us it will.  Standing in the Holy Place is a reference to the Priests who stand but in this instance instead of the Priest it will be the Anti-Christ.  He will put a stop to the sacrifices.  This has NOT happened yet. 

His Jewish audience knew exactly what this was about.  Because they already have a holiday (Hanukkah) to commemorate another instance where this already happened in about 165 B.C under the Syrian Antiochus Ipiphanes who slaughtered a pig on the altar defiling the Temple.  Christ is saying this will happen in the future again.  In order for this to happen sacrifices will be reinstated.  The Temple will be rebuilt.  It's going to happen. 

@Leauki:

True.  These last 7 weeks my husband and I have been teaching the teens in SS the 7 sayings on the cross as we led up to Easter.  Luke records at the end of the last saying ("into your hands I commit my spirit") the people who were watching (Jewish unbelievers) "beholding all things smote their breasts" after witnessessing the whole event including Jesus taking his final breath.   They realized as Christ drew his last breath and his shout at the end that He was indeed the one who came to save them.  He was the long awated King.  They didn't recognize soon enough what the thief recognized earlier.  The thief recognized God himself, Jesus as His King and His need of salvation. 

Another thing I came across in my study this week.  In John 7:27 the Jews asked "Howbeit we know this man where he comes from but when Christ comes no man will know from where He is." 

They were wrong on both accounts.  They believed, as every Jew knew well, the prophecy of Malachi 3:1, that the Christ would come suddenly to his temple.  He would come suddenly, unexpectedly, mysteriously, taking people by surprise.  So this man who is sitting in their temple cannot be the Messiah because we know that He came from Nazereth in Galilee and has been here for 30 years.  They conveniently dropped out the prophecy about the Messiah being born at Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).  The only prophecy they chose to look at was the one in Malachi concluding that He could not be the Christ. 

In religious matters people are easily satisfied with every imperfect and superficial reasoning, when they want to be satisfied and to be spared further trouble.  Men never want reasons to confirm their will.  This seems to have been the case with the Jews here but certainly is not limited to them. 

A common tradition of the Jews is that when Christ came He would come at midnight as the angel came at midnight when the first born were destroyed in Egypt and that could have been on their minds here.   

When they asked "howbeit we know this man, where he comes from" they meant Nazareth.  This was the universal belief of all the Jews.  When Jesus rode into Jerusalem just before his crucifixion the crowd said "This is Jesus, the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee."  When the inscription was put over His had on the cross in the letters of the three langauges it was "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."   But in reality He was born at Bethlehem exactly according to prophecy (Micah 5:2).  This could have been found out easily enough if they had taken the pains to inquire into his early history.  In a nation so strict about pedigrees and birthplaces such a thing could not be hid.  They instead satisfied themselves with the common story of His origin as it gave them an additional excuse for not receiving Him as the Messiah. 

In other words they took up the tradition of men instead of the written word of the prophets.   Some realized afterwards what they had done and "smote their breasts" at the foot of the cross. 

This goes back to what you said earlier Leauki.  It is part of God's dealing with man not to force conviction and belief on any one.  The obscurity purposedly left over Christ's birthplace was a part of the moral probation of the Jewish nation. If, in their pride and indolence and self righteousness, they would not receive the abundant evidence wihich Christ gave of His Messiahship, it could not be expected that God would make unbelief impossible by placing His birth of a virgin at Bethlehem beyond the reach of doubt.  In this, as in everything else, if the Jews had honestly desired to find out the truth, they might have found it. 

kfc posts:

I applied Romans 13:1-3 to the video and to Leauki's comment on the video regarding the US Supreme COurt's decision to prohibit prayer in public school in 1963. I think prayer to God in school is a good work. I think that the Court is part of government authority and their decision is a violation of Romans 13:3. Their decision was not good...was a terror to a good work.....

you say, Doing what is good here means to be a law abiding citizen of the government.

Yes, but that is our part of it. However, Romans 13:3 governs Government .....God tells government that it is Not to be a terror to good, but to evil.  

Note: Just as the Hebrew Bible, the book of Malachias comes at the ends of the prophets as well in the Douary Rheims Catholic Bible.

There are reasons for things.....The Protestant KIng James Version has Malachias last because Luther threw out 1 and 2 Machabees.

NO LULA.  That's NOT what it says.  That's why I wrote it ALL out above.  God is NOT telling the government ANYTHING in scripture. Jesus NEVER addressed the government or told it what to do.  Never.  His concern was NOT politics. 

 The book of Romans is written to the Roman Christians.  This is very important.  NOT THE GOVERNMENT!  God is NOT writing to the Government!!!!   I explained this already above.  God is saying for US not to do evil and if we don't do evil then the government will NOT be a terror to us.  Are you listening?  Did you read what I wrote?  

This is very simple scripture and you're taking it and twisting it.  It says once again:

see nothing to the government.  It's not telling the government to be good.  It's telling us to be good.  Geesh! 

has nothing to do with that but I posted an explanation on your other site. 

has nothing to do with Luther.  Even Jerome said they didn't read like the rest and he put a separation to them as well and he was alive well before Luther was even born. 

Old Testament Judaism is  the God-revealed religion as set forth in the Old Testament. OT Judaism is the religion God gave through Moses and the Aaronic priesthood.

Just to be clear, by revealed religion, I mean the act of justice, both privately and publicly which renders to God the honor, gratitude, obedience and worship due to Him and in the way prescribed by Him.

Almighty God not only demands religious worship, He actually specified the way in which we must offer such homage in both the Old Mosaic and New Covenant.

That's why I said that there is a vast difference between OT (God revealed) Judaism and modern (man-made) Judaism in all of its forms which were developed after 70AD.

The differences begin with the most obvious...That God made Judaism recorded in the OT, was an organic, priestly, authoritative, sacrificial religion. Can't find any of that in modern man-made Judaism.

The OT priesthood spoke with authority. Rabbis are not priests...big difference and no one speaks with Torah authority in any of the modern man-made Judaisms of today.

The OT priesthood were intermediaries between man and God...the Rabbi is in no sense an intermediary.

Modern Reform Judaism is a 19th century German invention of a Reform Rabbis Samuel Hoidman and Abraham Geiger.  Reform Judaism seems to deny what Orthodox Judaism affirms.  

I know the Orthodox division are strict adherents to the Mosaic dietary laws and to Mosaic ceremonialism as elaborated in the Talmud. I know that they ardently pray for the re-institution of the priesthood, sacrifices and Temple (as we are discussing) as well as for the coming of a natural Messias who'll bring happiness to the world by the imposition of Jewish domination.  "The Messiah will give to the Hebrews ruler ship over the world, and to them all peoples will be subject"--Talmud Bab.Shabb folio 120 & Sanhedrin folio 88 & 89. 

But concerning praying for the coming of the natural Messias, they fail to realize that the birth of the Messianic Son of David during the present age or in any future age, is an impossibility, as there is no house of David, or tribe of Judah in which a Messias or any other person could be possibly be born. The Supernatural Messias arrived in Bethlehem, the city of David as predicted in Micheas 5:2, in the time of Daniel 9 and in the manner foretold by Isaias 7:14.

That's why I asked if the Rabbi you quoted above reads the prophets.

 With Christ, the Supernatural Messias, came the end of Old Testament Judaism. OT Judaism culminates in Jesus Christ, a New Covenant Priesthood, the Holy Mass, and the Catholic Chruch.

Old Testament Judaism exists no longer. It fulfilled its mission when Isreal brought forth the Blessed Virgin Mary, her Divine Messianic Son, Jesus, the 12 Apostles, and thousands of converts who formed the membership of the early (Infant) Catholic Church. In the Book of Acts we read of the indisputable fact that the conversion of Jews to Catholicity is based on love, and not denial of OT Judaism (the religious faith) of their Fathers in ancient Isreal. That faith no longer exists for it has been translated (what I like to call blossomed forth) into the "new covenant made with the house of Judah" as predicted by Jeremias 31:31.        

We already went through this. That is your OPINION, not fact.

Fact is that modern Judaism follows the same rituals as "Old Testament Judaism".

There are no separate "Old Testament Judaism" and "modern Judaism".

But there is really no point in discussing this with you. You claim to have a divine right to define other people's religions. That settles it. You are a loony.

Romans 13:1-5,

1 Let every soul be subject to higher powers (governing authority) : for there is no power (authority) but from God: and those that exist, are ordained of God. 2 Therefore he that resisteth the power (authority), resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil. 5 Wherefore be subject of necessity, not only for wrath, but also for conscience' sake.

lula posts:

kfc posts:

Yes, KFC, that IS what St.Paul is teaching....the doctrine of the Social Reign of Christ which is meant not only for the early Christians to whom St.Paul was writing but for us today, today moreso than ever.

Who are the "rulers" in verse 3? Verse 4 answers that...the "rulers" are God's ministers to us and they are not to be a terror to good works.

kfc posts:

KFC posts

That's only part of it...however, Romans also addresses civil authority directly ....and another scenario...if the government (civil authority) does evil, then the government is a terror to good. 

 Your comments throughout indicate that you understand only part of the full teaching of Romans 13:1-3. But then again that might be becasue you haven't taken into account verses 4 and 5 which go directly to God's ministers.

That's why I posted them above.

So, let's take it from the beginning and perhaps we can come to the same understanding.

Romans 13:1......1 Let every soul be subject to higher powers (governing authority) : for there is no power (authority) but from God: and those that exist, are ordained of God.

Scripture states that God Himself is the source of all authority. Authority residing with one and subsequently given to another to be exercised is delegated authority. Scripture also teaches that there are 3 spheres of delegated authority established by God...and each of these spheres is intended to guide a specific area of man's function in his life on earth. The family is the 1st sphere, the Church is the 2nd and the 3rd sphere of authority delegated by God deals with civil government.  

Here, St.Paul teaches that God Himself delegated authority to be used for governing. Civil government then is a sphere of authority which was instituted by God Himself, but it's not an absolute authority since human individuals are capable of misusing it.

Therefore, each user is accountable to God for his administration of his delegated authority and he's held to a higher standard  than the person who holds none....."to whom much is given, much is required." 

Romans 13:2.... Therefore he that resisteth the power (authority), resisteth the ordinance of God. And they that resist, purchase to themselves damnation.

At the same time, when the one entrusted with that authority exercises it in the manner God intended, the authority has the full weight and power of God behind it. To oppose it is to oppose God. 

Romans 13:3...3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same. 

Civil government is to handle community order and God placed within the institution of civil government the foundational and operational directive in which to do so: Government is to be a terror to evil; it is not to be a terror to good.

So, from this we understand that civil government is an institutiion establlished by God who has delegated authoriity to man to carry ouot governmental functions.

Romans 13:4 speaks about the civil leader or ruler actively involved in civil government. It says for he is to be God's minister to you for good. So, civil authorities are God's ministers who are to deal with the behavior of people as they deal with one another in a community social setting.

Civil authority is to provide optimim benefit  and social order for the good of mankind.

That's why I said:

 You may disagree but I think when the SC banned prayer to God in schools all across the nation, they sanctioned a fundamental shift to evil and we are reaping the whirlwind. Same with the Roe vs. Wade decision. 

You're confusing bodies and souls.