Helios

Join Date 09/2008

How to make minions better/ more balanced

Hey guys,

Ok, so i learned today that clan wars has favor items disabled. This worries me considering i am heavily dependant on my favor item, and also because my favor item (BotS) saves me gold, i basically need no mana items with it. I talked with my clan and they said it was because the Generals favor items compared to Assasins favor items are completly imbalanced. The Assasins favor items rock basically and the generals favor items are next to useless because the minions themselves are useless.

So, we have Oak, Erebus, Sedna and QoT with minions. I know for a fact that an Oak without minions is a weak Oak. Im not too sure about Erebus's minions however i have played against a minion erebus and it seemed quite effective. That leaves Sedna and QoT. Their minions aren't even worth getting, they are so completly useless that when i see a Sedna or QoT putting points into minions, i know my team is going to win that game. Now, Shamblers may be a bit useful but only as a sacrifice to heal the QoT, and mid-late game they don't scale well at all.

So im suggesting that all minions should just buff up the Demigod, just like Oaks minions do. It works for Oak so why not for other demigod? Also, i would like to make it so that the minions each give a different buff. So Oaks minions increase his damage, QoT's minions could increase her armor for each one she has up and Sedna's minions could, well she already has a ton of health and all that so i think Sedna's minions should just get a good damage boost, maybe something similar to the siege archers. I would say more damage than the siege archers since they are melee minions, but maybe a bit less health or something like that. As for Erebus's minions, im not really sure. Like i said i've played against a minion erebus and he was pretty decent but i was a noob at the time so things could be much different now.

Also, instead of making an entirely new post, i just want to talk about generals favor items. Honestly, i've never used a single general favor item, probably because i play TB exclusively. But the point im trying to get across is that because of the minions in their current state, most people dont even get Generals favor items, because they play generals like assasins, and therefore just get the universal favor items. So, if someone who has more insight than i do on the generals favor items, please put your input on what you think needs to be changed, if anything at all, i may be wrong about the generals favor.

So thats all for now, tell me what you think.

demigod

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much more dmg boosts.

+10 dmg is nothing for shambler... 1. because all minions don't do what you tell them to do and 2. because they shoot only every 2 seconds or sth.

the health bonuses are much too weak. every shopitems has more hp bonus then all the general favors.

I mean come on Assa items like serpents blade give chars a huge boost of what ever they want becase they need no single mana item. What is a item with 100 minion hp +10 minion dmg or sth. against serpents blade???

Except cloak of the night, they are all nearly completly useless.

If they don't fix the minions AI... only way would be buffing the char like they do with oak.

And if they fix the minion so they do what you want them do so -> attack the enemy DG and not everything else, i would love to see something like ---use: minions get a 20% speedbuff for 10 seconds or sth.

Or give the minions some procs.

But biggest problem is that the minions are not doing what they should... For QoT that would be maybe enough... so when i spike the enemys and my shamblers would focus fire the enemy DG -> big advantage. but at the moment they do anything but FF

Maybe something like cloak of the night for your minions would be nice to port your minions around the enemy DG.

Another problem is the different numbers of minions for the generals. 10 dmg for 10 nightwalkers or spirits is MUCH more as for 4 shamblers or yetis.... and i think the spirits and nightwalkers have a much higher attack rate

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Maybe a better idea would be to make he Generals so dependant on minions that they have to use them. I mean Generals are supposed to be using minions, and not be using other abilities to be like assasins. So making them dependant on minions would make the term General apply, as it is now, General is a misnomer because as far as im concerned, every DG is an assasin.

Making Generals and Assasins was a shitty attempt at trying to diversify the DG's.

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Yes but if you have to control minions who can't follow your orders... Freewin for Assas.

I even tried clicking 20 times on a enemy DG but if there are creeps, mionions attack everything but DGs as far as my expierience goes.

So PLEASE SD tell GPG to fix minion AI... it's such a pain...

And i have another idea^^ Instead of favor items for minion speed, make all speedbuff items affect the minions. With a minionbuild its useless to follow someone because your minions are too slow and without them, it would be useless to follow a DG.

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Well, the main issue with minions is that they're fairly powerful the sooner you access them, but later on, when armour and health start to hit their peaks... Minions become pretty useless. The only way my Erebus can expect to win is to push on early and hope to bring an end to the game around mid-game, as he gets considerably weaker after that.

The thing with minions is that when they don't work, which happens often, they end up being incredibly useless. But when they do work, they can pile on damage incredibly fast. 12 Nightwalkers, 2 archers, and 2 priests can bring most enemies too their knees fairly quickly, especially if they lack AoE.

I find the main problem with minions is that at times, they're fucking brilliant. At other times, they're probably the biggest gold sink you could probably waste your cash on.

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Horn of Battle and Ring of Divine Might are amazing. The pendant of grace also works very well. It's not as dependable, but I've had my minions take out a tower solely because they dodged enough of the tower shots.

That being said, the Tome of Endurance and Totem of War are rather eh. Those need a boost, but don't think the rest are useless.

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I did some little tests and it seems like the minions follow your command till anything dmg them. Then they will change the target to the source of dmg.

Now when there are 3 ore more creeps attacking the minions, they are completly useless. No matter how often you push the attack button. It' something like heavy defensive mode AI

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Non the less they need to fix the ai of the minions. Like agressive/neutral/passive.

Agressive, attack everything within his/her sight.
Neutral, ONLY follow orders but still fight back.
Passive, DO NOT ATTACK (priests, focus on healing demigod)

So about the minions, there ok as they are right now.
Only the AI needs to be fixed in some way.

Then we get to the favor items.
TBH, i think that the whole general/assessin favor item section is bull.
In some way most of them are overkill.
Plz give us an option like, general favor items only.
Those are the only normal items if you ask me.

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Ahh yes maybe it would be enough to fix the AI but i still think shamblers would need a buff... but that's hard to say as long they aren't do what they should hehe

We should really bump this thread till Frogboy comes into play ^^

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Quoting Opawan,

reply 8

Ahh yes maybe it would be enough to fix the AI but i still think shamblers would need a buff... but that's hard to say as long they aren't do what they should hehe

We should really bump this thread till Frogboy comes into play ^^

I agree with buffing shamblers but what about the Yeti's? I've honestly used Yeti's only once with Sedna since i dont play her much and i feel like they're just too weak.

Then again, maybe we aren't going about this the right way, maybe generals shouldn't only be relying on minions they can summon but minions they can buy in the shop as well. I've seen an Erebus with all his nightwalkers, high priests and some siege archers and the damage was quite significant, good enough to call balanced, thats for sure, however like i said Erebuses minions are pretty decent. Someone would have to replicate the effectiveness of that with QoT or even Sedna.

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Quoting klaaspyro,

reply 7

First of all i totally disagree with you to BUFF the minions.
The minions are ok right now as they are. They are powerfull if you use them correctly (wich is sometimes a bitch because the have a own will)
To give minions even more buffs generals will be overpowered early game.
Being overpowerd early game mostly means win because you'll have a kill and lvl advantage wich the opponent will never make up again.

Non the less they need to fix the ai of the minions. Like agressive/neutral/passive.

Agressive, attack everything within his/her sight.
Neutral, ONLY follow orders but still fight back.
Passive, DO NOT ATTACK (priests, focus on healing demigod)

So about the minions, there ok as they are right now.
Only the AI needs to be fixed in some way.

Then we get to the favor items.
TBH, i think that the whole general/assessin favor item section is bull.
In some way most of them are overkill.
Plz give us an option like, general favor items only.
Those are the only normal items if you ask me.

I like the idea of being able to set your creeps to Agressive/Neutral and Passive, this would make it a lot easier to control them. As for you believing that buffing them is a bad idea, please elaborate. You say the minions are fine right now, ok so Oak and Ereb's minions are fine but im not talking about them, im talking about QoT and Sedna, you can't argue that their minions are weak. Now, this may be a biased view because i play TB and i have AOE which gets rid of them fast, however in most games i play i rarely see a QoT with maxed shamblers or a Sedna with maxed yeti's.

However like i said in my previous post, maybe the minions should be combined with other minions you can buy to increase their effectiveness. Someone would have to test this out.

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i tested all low tier minions against towers, so the dmg shouldn't be mitigrated

Shamblers: 30 dmg

Yetis: 30 dmg

Nightcrawlers: 20 dmg

Spirits: 20 dmg

Archers: 30 dmg

Minotaurs: 20 dmg

Monks: 50 dmg

Now i think Minion dmg isn't mitigrated because i'm sure monks hit me for around 50 dmg but every DG starts with around 30% dmg mitigration.

What a bad joke...

Now i will try to test if they are scaling with DG's level anyhow...

Edit: They don't scale with DG level or skill level

Hard to find out the attack speeds but for shamblers i'm sure it's 2 sec -> 4 shamblers = 60 dps...

A rook tower against a tower = 100dmg per attack and attackspeed should be too 2 sec.

So 1 Rook Tower does nearly the same dmg (unmitigrated) as 4 shamblers together ... ROFL

Come on... do some serious Minion buffing.

Edit2: Miniondmg really isn't affected by armor.... but that doesn't make things better.

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Ok, so i learned today that clan wars has favor items disabled.[/quote]

LOL. I think thats silly tbo. Clans don't like unpredictibility, I really think thats the truth. Who cares if "assasin" items are better than "general" items? The standard items (open to both sides) are plenty good imo.[quote who="klaaspyro" reply="7" id="2259718"]First of all i totally disagree with you to BUFF the minions.
The minions are ok right now as they are. They are powerfull if you use them correctly (wich is sometimes a bitch because the have a own will)
To give minions even more buffs generals will be overpowered early game.
Being overpowerd early game mostly means win because you'll have a kill and lvl advantage wich the opponent will never make up again.

Non the less they need to fix the ai of the minions. Like agressive/neutral/passive.

Agressive, attack everything within his/her sight.
Neutral, ONLY follow orders but still fight back.
Passive, DO NOT ATTACK (priests, focus on healing demigod)

So about the minions, there ok as they are right now.
Only the AI needs to be fixed in some way.

Then we get to the favor items.
TBH, i think that the whole general/assessin favor item section is bull.
In some way most of them are overkill.
Plz give us an option like, general favor items only.
Those are the only normal items if you ask me.

More or less agree, the normal favor items are plenty decent and are open to both assasins and generals.

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QoT and Sedna minions are pretty useless. Yetis, while not terrible, are melee based and so they take quite a beating. Shamblers are ranged, have no health, and they tend to block eachother from attacking eachother.

The problem is more than just one thing though. Summon Yetis/Shamblers doesn't improve the minions, so the Demigods have to spend points on two abilities just to maintain their minions. To top it off Sedna and QoT just get too few minions, that are too weak, for the mana cost and abilities points invested. Items don't buff minions nearly enough and the Favor Items for Generals are aweful.

From my experience (as and against) I have to say that oak and Erebus minions are fine. Oak's minions provide a nice benefit to him, and their abundance and ease of acquisition make them fine. Erebus' minions don't provide a direct benefit to Erebus himself, but the minions seem to be pretty effective.

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yes because they can have 10 minions do 20dmg each, that's 100 dps if they have 2 sec attackspeed too. And they are nearly for free...

with a item that adds 10 dmg it will raise to 150dps... thats fine. Sedna's and QoT's would do 80 dps with it.

Ohhh and i just saw that raise dead and coven provide some buffs... now it's gonna be really interesting.

Raise dead 4 = 160 dps

With Raise dead 5 bonus active = 200 dps

With Raise dead 5 bonus active + surge of faith 3 = 232 dps

With Raise dead 5 bonus active + surge of faith 3 + penitance 4 = 269 dps

+10 minion dmg + Raise dead 5 bonus active + surge of faith 3 + penitance 4 = 338 dps

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Only to remember - Minion dmg isn't affected by armor

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if you would now add in Oaks auto attack it would be around something like 600-700 dps or more.... with soul power maybe 900+ dps... but thats too much math for me now because i'm up since 30 hours. Ah and if you're attacking a tower with oak + upgraded minions ~1,3k dps

Can that be true?

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Coven 3 = 190 dps

Coven 3 + 10 minion dmg item = 240 dps

4 shamblers or yetis = 60 dps

4 shamblers or yetis with +10 minion dmg item = 80 dps.

4 shamblers with max entourage = 120 dps

4 shamblers with max entourage + max compost at stage 3 = 156 dps - if i'm right about max compost provide +18 dmg @ stage 3

If max compost on stage 3 provides 36 dmg it would be 192 dps if i'm right. I think that's the right numbers^^

4 shamblers with max entourage + max compost at stage 3 + morale 6 = 269 dps

SO NEVER EVER TRY A MINION BUILD WITH SEDNA OR QoT

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Quoting ,

quoting post

So, we have Oak, Erebus, Sedna and QoT with minions. I know for a fact that an Oak without minions is a weak Oak. Im not

lol wut? try a pent build oak after level 10 he's almost unstoppable.

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Quoting Opawan,

reply 11

With this numbers.... damn buff the minions. 2 shamblers for example cost 70% of your mana with lvl 1 and thats 60 damage per shot of both. i think it's 0,5 shots per second = 30dps for 70% of your mana.

What a bad joke...

Now i will try to test if they are scaling with DG's level anyhow...

Edit: They don't scale with DG level or skill level

Hard to find out the attack speeds but for shamblers i'm sure it's 2 sec -> 4 shamblers = 60 dps...

A rook tower against a tower = 100dmg per attack and attackspeed should be too 2 sec.

So 1 Rook Tower does nearly the same dmg (unmitigrated) as 4 shamblers together ... ROFL

Come on... do some serious Minion buffing.

Edit2: Miniondmg really isn't affected by armor.... but that doesn't make things better.

I do think shamblers are a tad expensive and possibly could use a mana cost drop.

One thing about there attacks though I'm pretty sure it damages all things in its path making them incredible good at farming it hitting clusters of demigods. Not 100% sure on this though.

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i like the idea of generals minions giving a buff to the general (mainly for qot and sedna).

eg. Qot - If all four minions r alive, you gain health/attack/def/mana boost. Whether it be health/mana regen etc. OR, if all four shamblers are alive you and your minions attack 10% faster. this way it would encourage the player to have all 4 summoned at any one time if they want full effectiveness.
(i actually did a bit of calculation on wat people having posted, once acquiring all necessary skills, its possible for ur minions to 450+dmg, but it is a heavy investment in using skill points. And they do attack from a distance which is handy.)

eg. sedna - if all yetis are summoned, sednas heal is increased by X amount of health, and heals dmg is increased by X amount.

remember, these r just examples...

Quoting Opawan,

reply 14

yes because they can have 12 minions do 20dmg each, that's 120 dps if they have 2 sec attackspeed too. And they are nearly for free...

12 minions doing 20 dmg = 240

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yes they have aoe dmg.... but 60 dps for 4 shamblers all together is still a bad joke.

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well with max entourage they can do 120dps. Then if u have max compost it adds up to something like 240dps.

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12 minions doing 20 dmg = 240

yes but 240 dmg = 240 dps if they are attacking every 2 seconds

but anyways they can only have 10 and i've corrected everything^^ take a second look

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yeh realised that when i posted lol thats y i corrected it.

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Quoting gkrit,

reply 19

howd u get 60 if all minions do a base of 30 dmg?

attackspeed 2 seconds... that's 60 damage PER SECOND

edit: lol now we have it

Edit 2: But with max entourage and max compost on stage 3 it would be 156 dps if i'm right about compost giving 18 dmg on max rank and stage 3 (9 killed)

i will add it to my list^^

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i also have a problem with items giving +5% attack speed to minions. that only take off 0.1 of a second. At least make it +15% attack speed increase = 1.7 seconds attack speed

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Quoting gkrit,

reply 19

well with max entourage they can do 120dps. Then if u have max compost it adds up to something like 240dps.

how does 240 dps come out? with max entourage and if max compost should really do +36 dmg i have 192 dps^^

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Usually playing Sedna, there is NO choice: You can put point after point in Yetis, to get a week unit that you need to use most your mana to summon over and over when they die, or you can use points for useful skills and your mana on stuff that keeps you or your teammate alive. . .

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