Unclean Beast - Late Game Balance » Forum Post by DalzK

sigh im sad that ppl only seem to think darkside dgs are op, yet they lose pantheon 90% of the time.

You are aware of the fact that stat reporting on Pantheon is not working proplerly? Quite often games do not get recorded at all. You can also win a game and still getting recorded a loss.

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Quoting WombSplitter,

reply 25

EVERY char can have about the same hp that will grant him a good survival the point is that with UB

Except not many demigods can chew up hp like UB can with an unmitigated damage combo of spit and ooze. Add on attack speed buffs and well placed stun and even someone with 7k hp vs. an ub with equal hp will be in a world of trouble.

The major problem is the retarded amounts of health people can stack, on characters that shouldn't really have those hp levels. UB is a glass cannon melee dps, not a a tank. But with hp stacking, he can dish out insane amounts of damage, and absorb them as well.

I don't know where you coming from here. The damage from Spit is extremely easy to mitigate. Many powers cancel its effects.

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I don't know where you coming from here. The damage from Spit is extremely easy to mitigate. Many powers cancel its effects.

And auto-attack with ooze? What counters that?

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The reason UB is so powerful late game is that he has the most scaling abilities. Seriously, nearly everything he has increases something by a PERCENT, and that's important.

Increased attack and move speed percents, a debuff that reduces movespeed by a percent, Ooze does serious % debuffs too for a FIXED cost. He has a self buff that increases his physical attack by a percent (what other hero has this? None of them, Oak and Rook for example get static attack boosts).

All these percents add up to scale massively at higher levels. This is the key to UB's awesomeness. I don't know what they can do about it, or even if they should. Perhaps they should add more percent increases to the other heroes instead.

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I said that all those demigods are more difficult to kill and a greater threat to your fortress than Unclean Beast. That's absolutely true.

Not quite. A tank/speed UB build is only possible to kill if you can chain a ton of stuns and slows. Being able to outrun everything easily, UB doesn't have to worry about melee autoattacks and close range skills at all when retreating, while Reg and TB get mowed down by UB. QoT doesn't really do enough damage to be a threat to tank UB.

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Quoting WombSplitter,

reply 25

EVERY char can have about the same hp that will grant him a good survival the point is that with UB

Except not many demigods can chew up hp like UB can with an unmitigated damage combo of spit and ooze. Add on attack speed buffs and well placed stun and even someone with 7k hp vs. an ub with equal hp will be in a world of trouble.

The major problem is the retarded amounts of health people can stack, on characters that shouldn't really have those hp levels. UB is a glass cannon melee dps, not a a tank. But with hp stacking, he can dish out insane amounts of damage, and absorb them as well.

you overvalue beast stun

differing from TB and erebus stun the beasts one its a self stun too

surely it does drain hp but in a situation of N v N or inside base with towers shooting being a self stun its a big malus

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Quoting InfiniteVengeance,

reply 4

The reason UB is so powerful late game is that he has the most scaling abilities. Seriously, nearly everything he has increases something by a PERCENT, and that's important.
.

thats true but you all forget the most important thing

noobness scales even more

regulus and UB are easy chars to play and hard chars to counter for noobs

in 90% of games there are some some noobs that will feed you and so you will not only have a very good char but even a overlvled char

UB is "quite" balanced but if he takes 2 lvl ahed for some noob feeding is unstoppable

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I said that all those demigods are more difficult to kill and a greater threat to your fortress than Unclean Beast. That's absolutely true. I would guess that you missed my point because you're the kind of player who only thinks about whether or not you can kill the enemy Demigod or not. That's not what I'm talking about. Many games come down to who is able to penetrate the other team's base properly and those demigods are better at it than the Unclean Beast.

And don't underestimate the ability of online players to cry over anything. Players cry a lot. Just because you consider UB superior to something else doesn't mean that's the consensus.

You cant kill UB if you are dead. Something being an unbelievable killer is basically the same as it being very difficult to kill. Yeah, if you have a situation where the DG is going to ignore you for some reason, Sedna might be harder to kill, but UB will always come for you and you will die much faster than it will, making it very difficult to kill. The UB is a MUCH greater threat to your citadel (I'm assuming that citadel == fortress in your paragraph above) simply because you cant defend your citadel if you are dead and citadels go down very quickly late game if they are left undefended by DGs. The only real way to threaten somebody's base late game as you say is to put pressure of death on enemy DGs. The late game UB is GREAT at doing that. QoT and Senda are not.

Late game is all about preventing enemy DGs from doing what they want to do - if you leave them free will they do catastrophic damage to your base very quickly. That almost always means killing them or threatening to kill them and thus driving them off. The UB is unbelievable at doing this late game, which is why it is a much greater threat to end the game than QoT or something silly like that.

In the midgame there is some value in simply being difficult to kill or drive off. Then you can sit and occupy a lane and rack up war score. Thats not nearly as important in the end game. Plus, with the kind of damage that an endgame UB, Reg, or even Oak can put out, nothing is really difficult to kill for long. A late game QoT doesnt stand up for very long at all to a late game Reg or UB - defensive builds always take a backseat very late game to the pure killers (with HP builds to make them a bit harder to kill) in my experience.

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Quoting dgl-DalzK,

reply 3

I don't know where you coming from here. The damage from Spit is extremely easy to mitigate. Many powers cancel its effects.
And auto-attack with ooze? What counters that?

Items that contain crits.

As a Reg, towards late game, crits, mines, and MotB chew up a UB with ooze.

Certain Oaks can chew me up even with ooze.

Too many people are stating that too many demigods are OP just because their "build" isn't a good counter. Health stacking is fine since all demigods can do it.

Possible solution: Armour that contains armour buffs should not have health regen. Force the demigod to either go high health/ regeneration or high armour.

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Quoting Ravyn74,

reply 9

Quoting dgl-DalzK, reply 3
I don't know where you coming from here. The damage from Spit is extremely easy to mitigate. Many powers cancel its effects.
And auto-attack with ooze? What counters that?

Items that contain crits.

As a Reg, towards late game, crits, mines, and MotB chew up a UB with ooze.

Certain Oaks can chew me up even with ooze.

Too many people are stating that too many demigods are OP just because their "build" isn't a good counter. Health stacking is fine since all demigods can do it.

Possible solution: Armour that contains armour buffs should not have health regen. Force the demigod to either go high health/ regeneration or high armour.

The best a mine reg can do late game is fight the UB to a draw if they are both good. The UB should be smart enough to not be supermined, so neither can do anything to each other. The Reg will of course die if the UB gets a chance to rush it while mines are recharging or if it can teleport nearby.

People have already addressed why they think that health items are not fair on UB despite the fact that all DGs can do it. HP items allow the UB to have essentially no weaknesses and many strengths. The same cannot be said of other DGs in general.

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i see 2 things going on with UB.

first is Inner Beast is a 10% multiplicative bonus to damage.

because it is multiplicative it is not especially strong until the late game but at that point (when base attack damage is high anyway and you probably have some good weapon damage gear as well) it becomes an incredibly large bonus. its a backloaded scaling mechanism, one of the few in the game (most are very frontloaded, all of the direct damage spells for example).

second is Ooze.

any DG can stack health. UB has no special advantage in this regard, its not like has has a health or armor multiplier. its just that Ooze is an ability PAID FOR WITH HEALTH so it becomes increasingly easier to access and has a steadily decreasing marginal cost throughout the game as you accumulate more health and regen. the ability goes from costly and taxing to nearly free. the ability itself does just average damage (140 DPS is fine, but strictly speaking its lower than Circle of Fire or like 4 Rook Towers). the debuff is dominatingly strong in the late game though because auto-attack damage becomes such an important damage source, whether its from large minion armies or a weapon stacked Demigod. Ooze is an effective counter to the most dangerous damage source in the late game.

but honestly i don't think its THAT out of whack. every DG can become very strong. endgame Oak and Regulus are also real terrors. UB is definitely one of the better lategame DGs but not by so much that I percieve it as problematic.

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first is Inner Beast is a 10% multiplicative bonus to damage.

because it is multiplicative it is not especially strong until the late game but at that point (when base attack damage is high anyway and you probably have some good weapon damage gear as well) it becomes an incredibly large bonus. its a backloaded scaling mechanism, one of the few in the game (most are very frontloaded, all of the direct damage spells for example).

second is Ooze.

any DG can stack health. UB has no special advantage in this regard, its not like has has a health or armor multiplier. its just that Ooze is an ability PAID FOR WITH HEALTH so it becomes increasingly easier to access and has a steadily decreasing marginal cost throughout the game as you accumulate more health and regen. the ability goes from costly and taxing to nearly free. the ability itself does just average damage (140 DPS is fine, but strictly speaking its lower than Circle of Fire or like 4 Rook Towers). the debuff is dominatingly strong in the late game though because auto-attack damage becomes such an important damage source, whether its from large minion armies or a weapon stacked Demigod. Ooze is an effective counter to the most dangerous damage source in the late game.

Well explained post.

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UB isnt any better then angel/mine regulus or TB late game. Its also funny you don't call Erebus out on being OP late/mid game.

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UB isnt any better then angel/mine regulus or TB late game. Its also funny you don't call Erebus out on being OP late/mid game.

If you just make random states with nothing to back them up I have no reason to believe what your saying. How exactly is a ub not any better then an angel/mine regulus? He has more health and can do more damage. A good player can easily avoid getting seriously mined all the time.

A late game TB? Spit/Ooze/Auto-Attack will do more damage then TB can dish out. Even if TB can maybe dish out a tiny bit more dps, the UB will have twice as much armour/hp anyway and with a stun/diseased claw I wouldnt put my bets on TB getting away. You see the thing is in order for TB to be dish out damage he needs AT LEAST 2 mana items - and to be fair 3 mana items would be a bit more realistic late game but it depends. That leaves him only 3 slots for armour so he can stack up HP. UB on the other hand needs zero or maybe one mana item, giving him 5 or maybe 4 slots to stack up HP.

Another thing I have seen is that UB actually has the highest armour in the game and although his HP is lower then Erebus/Oak/The Rook (of course) they all need mana items to play effectively, unlike UB who doesnt and so can stack up hp items only due to ooze being mana-free. Not just that, his hp is only lower then Erebus's/oaks by 300 - which doesnt count for too much late game.

As I've mentioned before this is a really hard thing to balance. What do you guys think about giving ooze a mana cost similar to the one regulus's angel has. Every time the UB hits with ooze a tiny bit of mana is drained? This would at least force UB to need some more mana items meaning he couldnt just stack up hp-only items as he know has no mana-free attacks. Not sure how well this would work though as one mana item would probably solve his problems...dunno - thoughts?

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a small mana cost for Ooze might be a good fix. the current costing scheme allows Beast to pay for Ooze too easily during the endgame. the health cost is well balanced for lower levels but becomes almost totally insignificant if you're running an item setup like this one:

* Blood of the Fallen

* Hauberk of Life

* Narmoth's Ring

* Unbreakable Boots

*Nimoth Chestguard

* Mageslayer (or Ashkandor if you're really wealthy)

at level 15 this is giving the beast a health pool of 6690, with 40% armor mitigation, and 45 health per second for regen. its also giving him 20% lifestealing on 361 pre-armor weapon DPS. against an opponent with average armor mitigation of about 35% thats still like an additional 47 health per second from the life drain. you can keep Ooze on permanently with this setup and still have a massively net positive health per second (approx. +42 hps while meleeing someone).

by contrast the mana pool of this level 15 Beast is small. 3348 mana with only 8 mana per second regen. Foul Grasp and Venom Spit are already sucking up most of that mana pool and it comes back very slowly. even a modest mana cost for Ooze would make it MUCH more costly. you wouldn't be able to just run it around with Ooze on at all times if you had to pay even a small amount of mana.

so yeah, i think your suggestion is a good one Dalzk. mana cost of something like 15/30/45/60 mana per second for Ooze would be a strong controlling factor that wouldn't diminish the raw power of the ability but would alter the item balance situation enough to prevent Beast from getting out of control with health stacking.

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dont see anything wrong with UB. sure he is powerful but other demigods are purely stronger than other demigods and its not considered a problem either. the games not based around 1vs1 fighting.

UB is pretty much a one trick pony. you wont see UB.

healing his entire team and regening sick hps.

setting up impentrable tower farms that shut down entire areas of the map

going invunerable, aoeing, doing a direct damage DD spell then heart of lifing combo.

teleing into a hot spot, going mist form to become immune to everything and damaging things at the same time ect ect ect.

as UB you pretty much run at something and hit it with your paws. pretty 1dimensional

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Quoting Ravyn74,

reply 9

Too many people are stating that too many demigods are OP just because their "build" isn't a good counter. Health stacking is fine since all demigods can do it.

Actually, I see health stacking as not so balanced. Reason is that some classes are meant to be glass cannons and they cease to be one due to static health increases instead of percentage based ones.

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I think UB is pure god for maybe 1 minute. Because the moment UB turn into "a god!", the game only last 1 more minute.

Acclimation is the true tanking god skill. 40% off all damage if anything hit higher than 500. With ashkandor and bulwark on UB, death simply does not exist.

With other skill combination like spit and ooze on the side of acclimation, it is simply mantis vs tank; UB being the tank. Tank not in traditional mmo talk tank; tank as in pure terror of modern land battle.

Of course, if you let UB get that far, you do deserve to lose.

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I hadn't realized so many of the UB's buffs were percentage based. If they were changed to appropriate flat buffs like most other demigods have, I think that would make these abilities more useful early on and less blatantly superpowered at level 20.

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ub doesn't really have a aoe late game giants here ubs alot unless there artifact whores

ub isn't the hardest to kill it is just that he is fast if u are fighting a ub make sure u have a reg

reg is the best couter for ub he has slow downs and snipe to take him out if he is running from ur allies

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Reg is not a good counter to a late game UB, even a reg with ash+mage cannot kill a UB 1v1 (with same level gold ect). Reg uses too many slots for dmg, and connot defend against an ooze ub with grasp that has alot of stacked health.

Remember though, erebus was nerfed not long ago.. lets not call another nerf too early and fuck up another class.

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Quoting Lionheart1118,

reply 24

sigh im sad that ppl only seem to think darkside dgs are op, yet they lose pantheon 90% of the time.

They have only lost 3 out of 4... thats 75%... On top of that, the actual games won to lost are very close to the same.

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reg can take on and i have many times if he has 7k hp that means u let him get alot of gold and u were being owned from the start

reg counters ub verywell and if u have to be a crit noob to do any dmg with reg then u shouldn't play u oviously havn't got the skill for it

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ffs crit noob...

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The biggest issue as I see it for unclean beast is that he has a major benefit that scales EXTREMELY WELL. That benefit is +attack speed. Any item he gets that ups his damage, gets multiplied by attack speed! Pretty much every other demigod gets basic bonusses like +health regen and +damage, which are nice but don't multiply whatever you get from most other items. To top this off UB gets part of his damage back in life (which again multiplies the usefulness of +damage items coupled with his increased attack speed).

I can take him down if I don't lag too much behind with Rook (base attack indeed) simply due to my item and skill build, I get a static damage bonus but with some increased attack speed and crits I can eventually smash through his lifeleech (probably due to my high armor).

But yeah he's got one of the most useful abilities in my opinion...

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