Devs: do you care about the modding scene anymore?

hydrocarbn

Join Date 09/2007

+45

Devs: do you care about the modding scene anymore?

So, it's been a little over three months since release. The "beta" (unfinished) version of the mod tools were released nineteen days after the game's release, which was admittedly pretty good. Sins, from the early beta period, was advertised as a "data-driven", easily moddable game. At every point this was emphasized: there was even an icon used in a few avatars released that had the Sins logo with a wrench and MODS on it.

It seems, however, that Stardock and Ironclad aren't taking this promise, and therefore, the future of this game itself, very seriously.

My concern at this point is that with both companies working on separate projects that the modding scene has been abandoned. I can count on one hand the amount of posts from the devs in the modding section within the last couple months. I'm not asking why we don't have the "final" mod tools yet, though that's not an unreasonable question. I'm asking why at this point nobody seems to care anymore.

When DoV migrated from Empire at War, it was simply because of these early promises by SD/IC. We were tired of having no control over most of our ships abilities, behaviors, and so forth. At this point, we've been given a lot of neat stuff as far as buffs, abilities, particles and such go. But those are relatively specialized. You can't build a TC mod around particle effects.

Amplifying these concerns is the fact that many systems were designed quite differently from normal RTS games. Was it due to the rush to release? Probably not - they've been that way since the beta. Why are entity files parsed so oddly? Why, in a bizarre change from convention, are "classes" of ships linked to certain shipyards? Who thought this was a good idea when the classes themselves are hard-coded? It's OOP gone horribly wrong. Why can one shipyard have two pages but not three? Why can the other shipyard only have one and five ships? Is this a failure of how the UI was designed, or something deeper?

The fact that these parts of how the game works are so integral makes those who dismiss the problems as being possibly fixed in the "final mod tools" seem more than a little silly. Of course, the fact that we aren't hearing anything makes it anyone's guess.

So, in summary, the question is simply this: with all due respect, do you care? Should we give up expectations of "final mod tools", should we hold out waiting for you guys to even comment on what's going on? Should we continue planning and developing our mods, as if they'll never exist?

P.S.: This is not a new concern. I think I speak for most modders on this: we just want a straight up-or-down answer to this question. I know Haeso's been adamant about it in several posts, and of course many of those in the wishlist thread, as well as some private conversations I've had with other modders. It seems being subtle about it hasn't really worked, so don't take this thread as being as overly argumentative or dramatic, it's just necessary for all of our sake.

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To be honest, I was looking forward to Sins almost exclusively because of DoV, and hearing that mod support was almost concern number one, was a pretty incredible thing. It does seem from what I hear that that support is not quite the primary focus. And I'm a little irate for it.

I have to admit though, much of that reason for my irritation might be due to the fear that I might lose the chance to play that game. Lords why has no one else done space Nazis vs Russians and aliens? Their mod could only be better if Japan was a playable faction.

Maybe the devs will begin to adjust some of the hard coded limits after 1.1? You know, maybe to just move towards their original promise.

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Well, it's not at that point - DoV has certainly found a way around most of the limits and I expect the other mods will follow suit. I simply just don't like making major concessions. In some cases, that sort of thing has lead me to solutions that actually worked better in gameplay and realism, but you know what they say about clouds and silver linings.

And a disclaimer: just because I mention them, I don't speak for anyone else on the team. My opinions on this issue are solely my own.

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there's so much that could be done with seemingly trivial changes, whether they would have been made in the game's development or after release.

Again I have to agree with Carbon016 on this point, but I take encouragement from a willingness to listen my biggest concern is the delta between the various wishlists (which for the most part have genuine points), and 'where we are today'.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2419

For the record, I am basically a modder. So modding is a very big deal to me.

With Sins, the mod tools have been made available but obviously need a lot of work in order to support a long-term community effort. And we will be doing this, but as others have said, in the near term, the focus has been to make sure we're able to support the players who just want to get the game (Europeans) or who want to have a more robust multiplayer experience (v1.1).

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Frogboy:
Thanks for responding, and for taking notice to what we are saying. Not that I am speaking for everyone, but I think that what we are asking for shouldn't be that difficult from game developers such as yourselves that made Sins in the first place.
If it is, then I have to pose the question, is there anything that we can do, as modders, to help speed this thing along?
Just bragging about the modding community here, you have coders, modelers, texturers, particle effect editors, and play testers all here, and we seemingly have been coming up with our own mods which are almost like, dare I say, "expansions" to SOASE.
I know there are only a handful of you guys, so I am putting in the table. Do you guys need help to get this thing rolling? I am sure more than a few people would be glad to help, especailly if it gets us what we need, and faster.

Again, thank you for your time.

DANMAN

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Not that I am speaking for everyone, but I think that what we are asking for shouldn't be that difficult from game developers such as yourselves that made Sins in the first place.

Actually it would be. Currently, everything we can do in Sins is modular, basically plug and play different pieces that are independent of each other. You can make a particle and simply plug it in an entity, or a mesh. But if something is hardcoded into the engine, like entity types, you can no longer simply make a different one and have it work. If each entity type had its own external definition file that we could modify, we could easily just make a new one and the game would read it as it does with entities themselves and know what to do with it, because it would maintain its modular design. But as it is, this kind of thing doesn't exist. Engine limitations are usually always there for a reason, and the code expects those limitations in order to work. Allowing us to "add" completely new entity types, buffs, research would probably mean that IC has to make them accessible externally, in essence making them "modules" as all the existing stuff.

And as psugar said, this basically would mean having to re-write the engine. But then we would still be limited to what we could put into them, because without access to the source code we can't teach the engine to read things it doesn't know how to. For example if we wanted to make another "resource" for strike craft, other than command points, sure we could add "PilotCrews" to the entity files, but how would we teach the engine what to do with it? That would require a more open engine and basically an SDK for us, the ability to script and modify the engine itself - which it isn't designed for right now.

I mean, it'd be great if eventually we gained some limited ability to script in new things, but it is a lot of work for them, too.

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Ah, I see wise Annatar11, thanks for the reply.
Maybe perhaps they could just loosen up the hardcodes for now. That at least would be something better than what we have now.
Any more support than what we currently have will be well appreciated.

DANMAN

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That would require a more open engine and basically an SDK for us, the ability to script and modify the engine itself - which it isn't designed for right now.

I mean, it'd be great if eventually we gained some limited ability to script in new things, but it is a lot of work for them, too.

It is yes but that is basically what we are saying isn't it?

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Yes.. and I'm saying it's great if at some point we'll be able to do it, I was just explaining that it's not quite as easy for IC as flipping a switch and suddenly we're able to do it

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Well yes, but as You all said earlier, it's kinda important for the modding community to be done sooner or later.

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For those who have asked, I am still here. I am currently talking privately with IC so I will be withholding any comment for the next day or so.

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Any smart game company does EVERYTHING in their power to cater to the mod community.

There has never been a game in history which prospered without a mod community. The time invested into catering to the mod community, from a business perspective, will more easily pay for itself and actually expand profits as people are drawn to the game for the mods themselves. How many people would be playing warcraft 3 without DOTA or the thousands of other custom maps? Or half-life without counter-strike? Would half-life 2 and the source games even exist today if half-life was not so easy to mod? The glory of the half-life and source universe was made possible by the great commotion made over the mod community. People started buying the game JUST BECAUSE OF THE MODS. People are attracted to the notion of being part of something great which evolves toward a common goal, they PAY FOR IT.

I realize that, like most capitalists, you are very excited about making money. Good for you, now you can make LOTS of money AND do something good for people. Make your game as moddable as possible and you will see the benefits - act defensively and attempt to limit your resources and weasle out of your obligations and your game WILL NOT SURVIVE PAST THE FIRST YEAR. That means less money, and it means a smaller portfolio for everyone involved. Valve is by far the most successful game company - you should be imitating them, not ignoring the historical record.

The first thing you should do is get into the habit of frequent, direct contact with the leaders from the mod community

That means:

1. inviting them to events
2. having routine, weekly contact with them - and ask for constructive criticism and feedback
3. treating them special and offering direct help in overcoming technical hurdles
4. asking for their input wherever possible.

You do not need to cater to the complaints of the various noobs who post on this forum, but pay SPECIAL ATTENTION to the mod leaders, the guys who have great plans are hindered by technical limitations. Ask them how you can be of help - and help them get their "team fortress classic" off the ground. Once your game has huge mods attached to it, you make money, lots of money. Not to mention people buying your game just to play the mod, but also you will then have a reputation, allowing you to in the future liscence the mods or make full sequels with a greater customerbase. See how that works? IT PAYS OFF.

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I think in fairness the game is today as modable as possible given the resources SD & IC can reasonably throw at the problem.

We'll just have to wait our turn and if it doesn't come to fruition then I propose a mass snowball+Molson deathmatch British Columbia style.

you don't need to use large fonts btw we aren't visually impaired.

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And any smart poster knows that what you just did in large font is obnoxious and counter-productive.

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I think in fairness the game is today as modable as possible given the resources SD & IC can reasonably throw at the problem.We'll just have to wait our turn and if it doesn't come to fruition then I propose a mass snowball+Molson deathmatch British Columbia style. you don't need to use large fonts btw we aren't visually impaired.

Count me in for the deathmatch

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

Also, along with being annoying, it's completely wrong.

Ignoring how asinine your assumptions on the relative modability of this game compared to others are, your version of history must end before your examples. I don't seem to recall any such blather about halo, or the myriad of console games that have sold well, or the top selling PC games either. The Sims isn't mod friendly, neither is it's sequel, or World of Warcraft.

Re-skins and altered stats on objects are all most of the Half-life mods were. If that isn't easier to do in Sins, I'd love to know how the modders are pumping out in game working models with their own weaponry on a regular basis.

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Good call Annatar11. Let's keep it civil people, with no more yelling or flaming.

TFL, we know you BC'ers like to spike your snowballs with ice, so it really would be a dethmatch.

Here in ON we'll take the brews and head to the beach. Happy May 2-4!

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Well I have just concluded my discussions with IC and there is some good news. It looks like they are going to devote more attention to getting some tools created. Unfortunately this means that they will need to go through all the phases to get them ready, so do not expect anything other than the particle editor (PE) in the near future. I will not disclose when they hope to have this PE out, but it should be very soon.

The unfortunate thing is that we have already lost some great modders, and I am sure that we will lose more before this is rectified. They assure me that they have no other tools than the PE, but they also confirm that they have had it for awhile. They say that it was not in a release state, yet they had months to fix it. It appears as if their development plans strayed, when they saw how popular this game was becoming. Now it looks like they are coming back to their original design, and I fully expect IC to make this a true classic. They are looking into the feasibility of a binary to text converter, at least for the mesh files, so those of us who use 3DS Max might be able to contribute a little more easily.

They are devoting more resources to us, the modders, especially answering questions on the forum. I am grudgingly willing to give them another chance and see what they can produce before the expansion pack comes out. I ask those feeling a little burnt out, to bear with it a little longer. I also ask that if you have discovered something that makes modding the game easier, to share with the rest of the community. It is a lot easier to follow a path than to blaze one yourself.

Cheers!

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Great news indeed FourAces! We'll stay and see how IC will manage with this in the future, and how we - the modders - will with the new features.

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