The problem is that wind speed can be measured and detected independently, it has weight, it has mass, it has a color, we know what makes up air, it's used in known natural processes. We can't do the same with God.


The thing is that the history books use evidence to back up their statements. For instance, let's use Washington's existence versus Jesus'.

1) Dozens of independent sources for the existence of Washington, including by many of his opponents. One or two sources for Jesus besides the Bible and one of them was a Christian, not exactly impartial.

2) We have Washington's own writings that can, again, be verified to be his. We have none for Jesus.

3) We understand that some of the tales regarding Washington are merely legends. Jesus tall tales are supposed to have been true.

4) No one claimed that Washington ever did anything that defies the natural laws. Jesus healed people miraculously, died and came back to life, etc.

5) Some of history books and biographies are known to have errors about Washington. The Bible is supposed to be flawless.

So let's recap:

For Washington, we have mountains of credible, independently verifiable evidence that can be contradicted, if necessary, for acts perfectly within natural laws.

For Jesus, we have an allegedly flawless, millenia-old collection of contradicting stories, paraphrased, redacted, and edited for the last couple thousand years from completely biased, non-verifiable sources about acts that defy logic and natural laws.

Age has little to do with this. It's the extravagant claims that have no proof that we're arguing.

No. Without the ability to test scientific theories about supreme being(s) creating the universe, intelligent design cannot qualify in any way as science.

Also, Ben Stein and the movie producers were extremely deceptive in their tactics to get interviews. Why not be honest, if they're claiming their opponents are not being honest?

Your the idiot, how could it change? If it had a different molecular structure it wouldn't be water. Bad rhetorical question.

Chuck Norris had a battle with the space ponies. This is how life was created. And, no nothing created Norris or the ponies. They just simply are.

To all supporters of ID: You know you are less than a joke in Europe? Just think about it... Why do you think does ID have such a large base of supporting people in the USA? The country with the most religious fundamentalists in the western hemisphere? While all the other western countries are as good as untouched by this idea? ID is only a creationisms tapped a new label on top of it.

Another point to the op: So Nazis were because of the evolution theory? thats funny because than it wasn't the fault of my grandfather and his generation slaying millions of jews it was Darwins. Maybe I will tell him this when I visit him next. Please please just inform yourself about Nazi-Germany before you talk shit like this.

PS.: To all christians not thinking ID is a great idea no offense intended. Believe whatever you want to. It is not of my concern but please please don't let someone teach our kids that evolution is untrue because the bible says so.

Nothing you say to me will change my mind.
Nothing I say to you will change your mind.

Go ahead and live and believe like there is no Heaven or Hell... like there is no God. You better hope you are right.

Romans 14:11:
It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "

---------------------
I am so sorry that your eyes have been blinded by science... That you cannot accept anything that can't be explained scientifically. Science has become your god and your religion.

To be honest, this thread saddens me greatly. It shows just how shallow the world has become... it shows how many have been deceived by Satan himself, into believing that there is no God, simply because you can't "see" Him. He is that burning bush right before your very eyes, yet you look the other way. You don't even WANT to find Him, it seems. You aren't looking for truth. You are looking at man as the higher power. You have put science on a pedistal. You must have physical, hands-on proof before you believe. What a shallow and unfulfilling life that must be.

I have prayed for each and every one of the skeptics that posted here. I don't know your real names, but God does. Maybe, someday, your eyes will be opened, and you will be ready to accept the truth. Until that happens, anything I have said here, or could possibly say in the future, is falling on deaf ears, blind eyes, closed minds, and hardened hearts.

My role in this thread is over. That will make most of you think that YOU have won this "debate". Just the opposite, my friends. I am simply shifting my focus from typing to praying for each of you, and to find other ways to plant seeds of truth in the hearts of other skeptics like yourselves.

May God bless all those that believe and those that do not. As Jesus said, while on the cross... "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do".

no u

Typical of your ilk. Just plug your hears and start saying "La la la I'll pray for you la la la." What is wrong? Were you starting to have doubts?


It's not that we cannot accept anything that can't be explained scientifically, its that we can't accept any claims just because some old book says so and it makes you feel good.


If he would just stop hiding in the gaps...


Burning bush? Where? Oh, you mean the one that nomadic tribe wrote about thousands of years ago when they though thunder and lightning were expressions of their god's anger and thought illness was a result of demons?


Trust us, we want to find him, he has a lot of answering to do.


Actually we are, you are the one assuming you already know it.


Not really, man is pretty insignificant in our view of the universe. It is your view that puts man at the center of it, or near it; with your claims that god created the universe just for us, and created us directly. If you didn't have such a need to feel important, you wouldn't have a problem with god creating evolution. You wouldn't have a problem with humanity not being the result of direct action by god, and you wouldn't claim to understand god either.


Not really, when contradicting evidence is brought forth, science does a pretty good job of throwing out the junk.


The depth or fulfillment of ones life has nothing to do with the truths or lack thereof of ones beliefs. As we have been stating, the truth is the truth, whether you like it or not.


Please don't, at least not for me. Aside from the undeserved ego boost you'll get from thinking someone as important as god actually listens to you, I'd really rather not spend an eternity with you and your god if you are right.


you guys really have no problem with self-contradiction, do you? I suppose it comes with the territory. How is you leaving the debate and giving up trying to make your case us not "winning"? In fact, how is it you winning? As that would be "just the opposite". If someone stops running, they surely aren't going to win the race, and if it is a test of endurance, you just failed.


Do even have any proof, outside of one book, and books that reference that book that he even said that? See the problem with creationists and intelligent design believers is that they think they have faith in god, when really they just have faith in a book and an organization built around that book.

Science does not contradict god(s), it make no claims about them whatsoever; it only contradicts religions. There is a difference.

Funny that the same standard is now rarely applied to evolution. Without the ability to test scientific theories about what existed 50 million years ago, the theory of evolution (as an explanation of origins) cannot in any way be stated as scientific fact. Yet it is taught as such. When I was a child it was still properly and carefully referred to as theory.

Untestable theories are not necessarily unscientific, you just have to recognize that without the proof required to elevate them to fact, they must remain theories.



Agreed to a point. I think most of the ID crowd are really creationists, some of which have lost their nerve. Not like the other side is brimming with honesty however...

Until it is explained to be otherwise to my satisfaction, I simply believe in a creation lasting 6 literal days. I have no need to argue the point, I just state my beliefs. People believe what they want. Some can explain why.

And God said, Let there be light. And there was light. And God saw the light that it was good. And God divided between the light and the darkness. And God called the light, Day. And He called the darkness, Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
(Genesis 1:3-5)

And because God has demonstrated the ability to predict the future to my satisfaction, I believe his record of the past.

And now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens you might believe.
(John 14:29)

If you want to live forever, you must acknowledge the giver of life, in a manner acceptable to him.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
(John 3:16-18)

For all those who think like this person, let me enlighten you with what 'theory' means in science. A 'theory' is a model made of FACTS, observations, hypotheses and is used to predict and explain natural phenomena. A theory does NOT graduate to a fact.

That's why we still have the gravitation theory, germ theory, theory of computation, etc, etc.

Now, that we've hopefully gotten past the "but it's just a theory" part, let me tell you that there is over 150 years and thousands of scientists worth of evidence for evolution. Just like we don't have to travel to Jupiter to know what it's made of, we don't have to travel back in time to know that evolution is true. If for nothing else than for the simple fact that evolution is still occurring even today.




It is you prerogative to believe whatever you want, but don't try to sell creationism as science. It isn't.

Also, just keep in mind that while you believe the Bible and think that evolution is all lies, we are using evolutionary theory in medicine, therapy, biochemistry, biology, bioengineering, industry, farming, etc. We also have testable and demonstrable predications based on evolution. So, whether you or anyone else believes in evolution is really inconsequential since evolution works with or without belief. If you stop believing in the theory of gravitation, trust me, you'll still be attached to the Earth. So, keep on believing whatever you wish. Just remember that evolution works and that medicine you'll be taking was most likely based off work from evolutionary theory.

I do believe in a "superior plane of existence" (call it God, Buddha, Valhalla, whatever) but that is what I feel to be right for an "afterlife". Imposing stuff on others is called "fanatism". And, in that, you are not much different than "muslim integralists".

To me, what is really important is the following:
- Religions (Roman Catholic, Islamic, Jew, ...) where created by MEN, and, as such, are FALLIBLE. They try to "explain" things around us and fail to do that completely.
- Science is another way for humans to "explain" things. Also created by MEN so far from being perfect.

That said, it's really a matter of choosing which one of the two suits better, for YOU, in a particular situation: i.e. Death and "afterlife" are better "explained" by religion. Science does a way better job of explaining how a bacteria grows and adapts to it's current environment.

Oh, and regarding all of us "scientists" going to hell, let me quote some lyrics, by a famous and one of the most highly regarded italian Singers (which you probably don't of, but who cares).
"Hell only exists for those who fear it." I don't, so guess I'm a scientists out of your prayers: I don't need any sort of book or person to speak with god, I simply do it.

You must have missed this...

"...the theory of evolution (as an explanation of origins) cannot in any way be stated as scientific fact."

... and I totally missed the part where I was selling creationism as science, I thought I was selling it as truth.

Jeesus Christ what a post

As a European, but a big fan of US ideology (the ORIGINAL ideology, not the hyper comsumption over debt police state, no, the Jefferson and Paine stuff)I have often wondered why do people have to bring god out in the open so damn much and tell everybody that god explains everything. Education is different from faith and very FAR from organized religion (and ID is backed and funded by organized religion).
We have all seen what happens when you bring god to the equation with government and education.

Anyway "Intelligent Design" has been debunked already (so many times) so dont really see the point to teach it in schools? It is NOT science, keep faith and science separate.

Was it clean enough?

But dont worry, its not going to happen the science community (even the religious ones) dont like the idea. It is just well marketed hype that will go away...

Now back to more important stuff, playing SINS...

ps. Sorry for the typos