UAF

Join Date 05/2006

Impressions from the demo

I've read the online reviews of the game, and it looked like a very very good game. I also really like the fact that I can just buy it from the site, but I decided to download the demo first just in case.

And boy am I glad I did...
Because to tell you the truth, I'm disappointed.
Now I'm making this thread for several reasons - I want to say what I didn't like so if:
1) It's just because I missed some feature or because the Demo is so short, and I'm wrong and the game rocks, then I want to know about it.
2) Heck, maybe someone will someday implement these comments and make a game that I'll really really really like.

So without further ado I present my complaints:

Generally, it seems to me that the game took the depth of RTS and added the pace of 4X. And IMO what should've been done is taking the depth of 4X with the pace of RTS...

1) The playing field, while it can LOOK huge, is actually very small. There isn't any room to maneuver in a gravity well, and there isn't anything at all outside gravity wells. So instead of a huge map, what you really get is lots of "dots" of engagement with phase lanes between them, like little miniscule maps interconnected. The distances inside the gravity wells are small, and ships will always encounter each other there. Oh and to boot, in the openness of space... the game is on a 2D board...

2) The former point connects to the current one, which is battles. My ships just sit in place and fire of the enemy, which also sit in place. No maneuvering, no tactics, no strategy. It's the sitting ducks game. I won't get anything from sending my ships around the planet, or from brining more ships from another direction. Pincer move and flanking don't seem to exist.
Mind you, I'm not talking about micromanaging battles here. I'm talking about flanking a foe by bringing a fleet from another planet.
Really, 10 years after HomeWorld I'd expect more from real time space battles.

3) Still on battles - the differences between ships, if they have any real impact, are not clear to me at all. I realize this is a point that can be especially influenced by the limited nature of the demo, but I really don't see why or when I should build one ship and not the other, especially if the other seems to have more firepower.
Seems that battles here are only about who have more and bigger ships, and there is no point in building the lesser kind when you researched the bigger level. And when you have a big enough fleet you just throw it straight at the enemy, and let it fight. No other consideration necessary.

4) The game environment is very simplistic. Only 5 planet types with gas being useless, all the same size, no moons, nebulas and such have no real impact on the game and are treated as planets. There isn't much exploring to do other then finding out what kind of "planet" is in the end of the next phase lane.

5) There is no real diplomacy in the game, or so it seems. Gone is the complex diplomacy of GalCiv2, we are back to simple RTS diplomacy. From a game that presents itself as RT4X, I really expected more.

6) Planet development, and in fact any development is very simplistic, even shallow. 1.2.3.4 Habitats and we're done. Slap another shelter on, etc etc. I don't need a real development plan for my planets. Same goes in space around them. Just place whatever structure wherever you want, it's all pretty much the same anyway.

7) The research tree is very RTS in nature. True, it's not the simple and small Starcraft or C&C tree, but it's no bigger then Rise of Nations or Earth2*** (Choose the year, all the games apply). This is not the extensive and long 4X research that forces you to choose a direction and game-long development strategy (and rewards you with being better then others in your areas of expertise).

Well, I think these general complaints pretty much covered the whole game... which is sad.

I can go on and on with detail about how I would make a game, but after I just bashed Sins I doubt you'll read it.
I will point out some games and parts that did it right though:

Hegemonia - now that's a game that did A LOT of it right. The English sucked (really, it did) and there was NO point in building smaller ships once you researched bigger ones, but in other areas it REALLY shown. Solar systems were HUGE with plenty of open space and planets. Connected through wormholes to other systems the effect was very similar to Sin's phase lanes. Only here the gravity well was an entire HUGE solar system. I expected Sins to take the good here and improve it.
Hegemonia also had a relatively long and complex tech tree, and a good heroes system.

HomeWorld - I'm sure you saw it coming, but it's for a good reason. HW used all the 3D of the 3D map, had amazing space battles with maneuvers and diversity. Players always had many ship types in their fleet, etc etc.

GalCiv2 and MOO2 - Diplomacy, research trees, 4X-iness... And considering that Sins was made by those who made GalCiv2... tsk tsk.

Well anyway. I'd expect a game that calls itself the first RT4X to combine the best elements of these games and expend them. I really feel that there was a great miss here.

P.S - As I said before, I only played the demo. If I'm wrong with my observations then please correct me. I'd like to play a game that is what this game PRESENTED itself to be. I just feel that what this game is in reality is not even close...

P.P.S - I read some of the suggestions for expansion, and I must say that lots of those suggestions seem like things that should've been in the game already. Feels like Sins is an incomplete game, It got the skeleton (and parts of it I don't like as you've read) but lots of the meat is not there, and just maybe it'll appear in the expansions (or mods).

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The bottom line is that the game is not for everyone

I understand your points, and you're basically look at it more of "what it lacks from 4x", while I'm looking at it more from the "what it has over traditional RTS".

The fact is, because of these two ways of looking at it, this does put the game in between RT and 4x genres, because it has elements of both. Compromises have to be made on both sides, and some common 4x elements just can't fit into a real-time environment.

I'm not really going to debate, though. Sorry you don't enjoy the game, but perhaps the expansion you'll like better.

The only thing in your post that really does rub me the wrong way is that you call the game incomplete, because that's far from the truth. The other small detail is that the game is not made by Stardock, they just publish.

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You are missing a lot of the depth of this game, due to not being familiar with the interface. Battles can be much more tactical by selecting specific targets, assigning a firing order etc.. You can certainly flank and pincer enemies especially from system to system.

I think, personally, that you kind of have a 'birds eye view' of it, but in order to really see the depth you need to play more, on a larger map, with more opponents. Also you should play against other humans.

This is the first RTS that actually intrigues me and entertains me because the scale is so large it becomes approachable and allows you to manage a ton of stuff without madly clicking around like an ADD kiddie on ridilin.

While you could say 'the maps are small, just some dots' you really need to try a huge map to experience the massive scope this game can encapsulate. 5 different stars and over 100 planets + 10 enemies = game that could take you days to complete.

Then again, if you don't like what you sampled, then perhaps this game isn't for you. But I do think you haven't figured out the true depth of it with your limited exposure and also it seems like you are pre-disposed to not liking it at the end of the day.

Personally I'm thrilled I stumbled on this game, it's a great strategic game that is a blast to play on a LAN with my friends. (or remotely) It's also priced very aggressively and you will definitely get your money's worth out of it if it's a game you enjoy playing. I rank it up there with COD4 for price of game - return for purchase.

Will more depth and features be added? Sure, they are patching it like crazy adding stuff and an expansion has already been promised. This is a small development studio that put out a great product but they aren't Blizzard with a 100million dollar warchest that could afford to accomplish all of their lofty goals at the outset. But I do think that they will keep adding to this fantastic foundation and the sky is the limit on how much greater this game can get.

I say how much greater it can get, because it's already a great game and worthy of the high scores it has gotten from pretty much all credible reviews / magazines.

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It seems that people who expected a pure 4x game are the few who are disappointed with the game, and among them they are almost universally disappointed in the game. Apparently juggling a fleet with planet research, military research, civilian research, orbital structures, a pirate system, a black market system, and a diplomacy system aren't enough for some people.

I'd like to address the '2D board' comment with a bit of science, namely the phenomenon of objects pulled in by gravity to rotate along a roughly 2d plane. Its the reason why solar systems, and even galaxies, tend to look like disks. Also, why wouldn't the fighting take place in gravity wells? Would you bother defending an empty expanse of space? Where would you get the resources for upkeep of your ships and people?

While ships do tend to remain stationary once they've found an optimal firing spot, you can easily work in extra tactics. If you want flanking from another gravity well, do it. Or use the Radiance battleship of the Advent to do the same. Position your forces higher on the z axis and point them downward to ambush enemies that phase in. Keep light assault frigates in a different part of the gravity well than the rest of your ships, they are the fastest units. Research the tech that allows you to see enemies phasing towards your planets, giving you time to check your ambush. There are tons of options available.

Sadly, people expecting a combat sim like Homeworld are also disappointed. Sins is a resource based RTS afterall, similar to the older Age of Empires titles.

In regards to the ship counter system, check the pinned topic in the strategy section about Damage Types. Also, you definitely don't want to use only larger ships, there are many abilities unlocked that will quickly cripple a few larger ships(literally, or by stealing their antimatter, or through other means). Vice versa, there are some abilities that spread damage to multiple ships and are useful against lighter frigates. Or you can go the carrier route and just chill at the edge of a gravity well while your strikecraft go to work.

While you can just throw ships into a fight and ignore them, this doesn't produce the best results. As a basic example, you can rotate damaged ships out of combat(light assault frigates work best). You can use ship abilities to cripple specific threats, or blanket a particular area with an ability. There is usually something you can do to help during combat.

There are the phenomenon of magnetic clouds and plasma storms. One disables strikecraft and the other disables ship abilities. Gas giants can ignite, causing damage to nearby ships. Stars emit solar radiation to recharge ship antimatter. Asteroids of all sorts cut weapon accuracy by 20%. Also, gas planets have neutral resource satellites, which give you the fastest income rates. They should have more than one though, to compete with asteroid belts and space junk and the like. Definitely an area to explore for the expansion.

In regards to planet development, it gets a slight bit more complex when you perform exploration and find planet bonuses. Say you find a desert world with the 'Spice Trade' bonus. Great, load up all 36 logistic slots with trade centers and media hubs for those bonuses. Maybe you've found a +20% ship build rate bonus, slap on three ship factories to pump out your army. Have a Weapons Testing Facility on your planet? It would be a great place to locate your superweapon, having an extra 8 tactical slots. Sure, it isn't too complex, but you can appreciate it more in larger maps.

In the end though, I have to stress that Sins is at its heart a resource based RTS game. It adds all the elements listed in my introduction, but remains an RTS. If you want a 4X game, or a battle sim like Company of Heroes(hope I have the right title), then buy those respective titles. For RTS fans though, Sins is great.

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Interesting replies so far. Makes me wonder how much of the game the demo really shows...

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Consider a hybrid game, RTS and MMO.

EVE Online

This is truly the best, most immersive and complex game I have played.

Free 14 day trial of the FULL game!

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You're not too far off the mark, but it's still a decent game which should get better with dedicated balance patching.

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RonLugge

Join Date 05/2004

+50

Oh and to boot, in the openness of space... the game is on a 2D board...

The game is fully 3D; units just don't bother with it to a noticeable degree without specific orders to the contrary. Which players almost never give because they're pointless.

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Well, I think how you see the game is largely up to you. I expected a hybrid, so I was disappointed as the game is basically entirely an RTS.

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I agree.

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To your second point: Actually, I tried a small test out with light frigates. I basically made a 'fighter' use the colbult model and slowed the speed down. The battles actually looked kind of interesting now. Nothing amazing and they dragged on (Ship would go by too fast, try to turn around while the other frigate does the same)

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It's true the game could use some more depth to it, especially with making each race unique, as it is now they all have basically the same ships with a different name and the game needs more options other than build a bigger fleet than your enemy and take the next planet in line.

Only problem I have is when people complain that ships just sit in one spot and shoot at each other. In movies where I can remember huge space battles, ships do just sit in one spot and fire at each other (minus very small advances or when retreating) while much smaller vessels are the ones zipping around. This game got that spot on, all ships act like the bigger ships and fire from one spot while the strikecraft are zipping all over the place.

I hadn't bothered zooming into the fights as everything could be managed with the empire tree and planet view but when I did finally zoom into a battle I was impressed. There was strikecraft flying around everywhere and ships would be moving between areas of the gravity well to attack different targets.

Granted this was with a huge variety of ships and probably one of the biggest fights I've had in the game but it was still very impressive.

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Consider a hybrid game, RTS and MMO.EVE OnlineThis is truly the best, most immersive and complex game I have played.Free 14 day trial of the FULL game!

That game has 'too many' features. At least with Sins you can pick it up and not need to dedicate your life to figuring it out and excelling at it.

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