embargo is too good for non random start maps

brindle

Join Date 04/2006

embargo is too good for non random start maps

I've now played four games in a row on maps like maestorm and foreign invasion and in every case have had at least one person (team mate and enemy) embargo rush. Since the map is fixed, the rusher knows exactly where the nearest enemy homeworld is. A very good strategy i noticed in replays is to actually spend the $$ to upgrade the capital ship. Get heavy bombers to go with embargo. At about the 5:30 mark, the lone capital ship will show up and start circling the planet.

The problem is that no matter how well prepared the defender is, he is basically hosed. His economy will be crashed, and even with a decent defensive fleet and his own cap the embargo can go on for a LONG time since the enemy capital ship is pratically impossible to kill. Pecking on it with chasing ships can take 6 or more minutes. By this time, the attacker is probably also showing up with a bunch of his own frigates to keep the defender busy. The goal being just to keep the embargo up as long as possible.

I have not seen any good defense against this. It is just too easy to 2-3 jump to an enemy homeworld within the first 5 minutes of the game. The rush is not my complaint, a capital ship circling a planet is no worry to a defender. My complaint is the embargo skill. It simply cripples the person attacked and is really overpowered when able to be used so early in the game when no defensenses are avialable to effectively drive off a capital ship. I see this as a real killer to set battle maps designed specifically for multiplayer, only random maps can slow it down some as the rusher has to find the enemy first. I hope the developers are aware of this 'cheeze' and have a way to do something about embargo.

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OK, let's try again.THEIR SOVA IS IN YOUR HOME BASE. So whatever fleet THEY have, is the SAME AS THE ONE YOU HAVE. Like, seriously, are you a complete idiot?For another alternate description:ONE CAP SHIP FROM THEIR SIDE ON YOUR TERRITORY, ONE CAP SHIP ON YOUR SIDE IN THE SAME SPOTHOW DOES THIS HAVE ANY IMPACT ON THE EXPANSION

There are a lot of problems with such an approach:

1. You have to be Advent. Hurf.
2. You have to pick a sub-standard starting ship (the Mothership is almost always better). Durf.
3. You have to figure out that they're building a Sova before you build your capital ship, which means they may prance over to your homeworld in a small game and embargo it before the ship is even ready
4. You have to keep your capital ship in one place (your home planet) the entire time
5. The Radiance has no strike craft defenses, which means the Sova's strike craft can happily bomb the shit out of any research stations you attempt to build, limiting your expansion there as well
6. The Sova player can happily retreat at any point if he stays within the gravity well

Any strategy in which the defending player has to go to such overwhelming lengths to counter it when the attacking player can simply click to build a capital ship not only limits expansion but is inherently unbalanced: unlike you, I've actually played a game where this happened, and it pretty much sucked.

YOU'RE A COMPLETE IDIOT

I AM ANGRY, ANGRY ABOUT COMPUTER GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Jesus christ. Every single point you make is wrong.

How do I even respond?

Any manaburner works, Vasari Kortul, or Radiance

Substandard? Radiance is standard. You're an idiot
WOW scouting? SCOUTING?????? since WHEN??? WHO SCOUTS THE ENEMY HOMEWORLD
keep in one place?? HOW ABOUT FOLLOWING THAT MOTHERSHIP AROUND WITH YOUR RADIANCE SINCE IT'S AT 30 HP AS RADIANCE HAS HIGHEST DPS IN THE GAME

wow you know how much damage 2 bombers does? he might kill 1 structure, he's saccing all his shields + hull to do it

Happily retreat? with 0 mana and badly damaged hull?

Seriously man, i INVENTED the damn strat, I know how to fucking counter it.

You're just a massive idiot, and for some reason, it makes me angry every time you post. I think it's a combination of the fact that you're an idiot and don't realize it.

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about disruptive strikes:

kortul is as slow as a sova, so if the sova is being microed to continue circling the kortul will barely ever get any hits in and barely deplete the AM. yes it can catch up if you send it to the right spot and the opponent doesn't change his direction or when the sova is changing angles, but each time it catches up it will only be able to fire several shots (not all of its weapons work with disruptive strikes) that actually have a 30% chance to deplete 8/12 AM before the sova is out of range again.

The reason detonate AM is superior is that it only requires getting into range for a second once every 20 seconds.

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The kortul is as slow at top speed, but turn rate wise, the kortul is significantly faster. Carriers are hellish to control, and kiting with a sova is pretty much impossible.

Clearly, Radiance is the superior choice.

But, you have to remember that assailants do much better than disciples at taking down cap ships.

You would be surprised how quickly assailants can down even full health cap ships, and Sova is not that buff.

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actually sova and kortul have identical turning rates, speed and mass (this influences speed somehow, not sure how).

kortul
mass 10000.000000
ShieldMeshName "Shield_PhaseBattleship"
maxAccelerationLinear 100.000000
maxAccelerationStrafe 10.000000
maxDecelerationLinear 500.000000
maxAccelerationAngular 1.000000
maxDecelerationAngular 9.999996
maxSpeedLinear 500.000000

sova
mass 10000.000000
ShieldMeshName "Shield_TechCarrier"
maxAccelerationLinear 100.000000
maxAccelerationStrafe 10.000000
maxDecelerationLinear 500.000000
maxAccelerationAngular 1.000000
maxDecelerationAngular 9.999996
maxSpeedLinear 500.000000

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That is shocking, I guess the fat rectangle just feels slower than it actually is.

In that case, I guess either marauder or desolator would be best for a cap kill with assailants.

That's also pretty map dependent. I guess Vasari can have trailing navs on the sova at all times to keep tabs on it too. The other races have far less problems I think.

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Yeah the phaseout does not cancel the embargo. But if you take inside track with Kortul you will be in firing range most likely. It will just take some micro.

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Have you tried simply rushing them? You should have a much larger fleet and they wont be able to expand very quickly. The game could well end once their frig factory goes down.

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Some guy did this to my ally just now. My ally left 5 minutes after the game started because of this. Later, we tried to kill the carrier with 2 battleships, 1 Akkan and a lot of frigates. Needless to say, it was impossible for us to kill it. This ability is overpowered, and it´s almost impossible to stop unless you got a fleet LRM´s waiting for him, which happens rarely this early in the game.

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I don't know too much about the embargo because it's never been used against me (saw it used once against my teammate).

Could make a patch......if the "victim planet" has a stronger fleet in the gravity well then the embargo would be automatically canceled.

You could also make a technology which neutralizes the embargo, Han Solo style. What was Han Solo in Star Wars?

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This ability is overpowered, and it´s almost impossible to stop unless you got a fleet LRM´s waiting for him, which happens rarely this early in the game.

In the next patch this wouldnt even be possible even if you are lucky to get lrm's before they show up.

next patch will make it so LRM's are slower than caps, so a circling sova can only be countered by 1 to 2 specific caps per race and not LRM's.

meaning that you have the following options:
-always picking those caps on the small non random maps vs tec opponents.
or
-waiting to see what the enemy has/is doing before making your first cap, which could actually set you back if his already expanding with his cap and didnt go sova.
or
-not playing specific maps, best solution imho for the moment

.

one thing that the patch does solve is that they did fix the embargo stacking bug (or claim to).

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Yeah with the next patch this should be a non-issue. Embargo will be a lot less painful even if the rusher gets in there with no resistance on a small map. It will likely stall him just as much as it does the person he is doing it to.

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Guys, please a little bit less of "Again, you prove your stupidity.", "Go troll somewhere else." and "you're a complete idiot". I am pretty sure that the unfortunate truly mentally challenged have no chance to get to play this game at all. So lets count ourselves fortunate and not be needlessly rude.

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Embargo itself is not overpowered. Embargo on capital planets is overpowered.

I frequently face TEC opponents who use Sova on Maelstrom or what have you, and I'm always able to destroy the Sova. The problem is that even though I destroy their cap ship, my economy and expansion has slowed down so much that the opponent still ends up with a net positive over me.

IMO, embargo should be changed so it cannot be used on capital planets until level 3 upgrade.

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what about simply making it a range skill like drain planet or colonize? Basically make it so the sova has to get relatively close and be looking at the planet to fire off embargo? That might actually nerf it too much. Making it have to look at the planet should be enough.

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I have personally tested this vs huntingx, the replay was posted somewhere. I didn't micro to hell because i wanted to see if it was indeed overpowered, i should have won by macro alone. I didn't, because if you do rush at 5min (like i did in the test), you haven't even expanded and you won't be expanding, because you're going for the kill (else you lose). It's a standard rush, you do it, and then it's up to microing your sova, bombers and a few frigates to win the game. Won't work always, you will lose vs better skilled players.

If you expand first, you arrive too late and he will be able to defend. If you haven't expanded, the credits advantange from the embargo is nullified by the resource disadvantage of his colony. If you expanded, you will embargo a few times and then end up with a damaged lvl3 sova as capship and 2750 credits behind in development, which will make you lose the game vs a decent adversary.

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