Naoza

Join Date 01/2008

Defense Suggestion

First off I love this game and have been following its release for... A year? Well I noticed a lot of people saying how defense is useless against a vast fleet, which is true. So I was thinking what would be the best solution for turtlers the other day and it hit me, why doesn't defense take fleet slots? Like after all the tactical slots on a planet is full, any additional defenses will begin to use up fleet supply.

I remember first reading about Sins how one could be an economic player and use bounty to cause other players or AI to fight over it, however I don't see the economic side so much. A greater variety in structures that can be built would, in my opinion, give planets the better feel of being alive. IE, for the TEC, have Space Casinos or something to that effect.

One thing that gets me is how drastically upgrading your fleet supply decreases your income. I think it should scale to the amount of ships you have, like if you max your fleet supply at X level, the correct deduction from your income should be made. So people with max fleet supply won't have -75% income at all times, only when they max it out.

These were just a few things I was pondering and decided to throw them out there, don't mean to cause any problems or flaming

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Nice, especially the fist suggestion of additional defensive structures taking up fleet slots, that would make playing a defensive, or converting to a defensive position much more effective. As is right now defense is pretty nothing in face of a titanic fleet which after a little while into the game most empires have, or can gather relatively easily.

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Well I noticed a lot of people saying how defense is useless against a vast fleet, which is true.

And the way it's designed to be

Defenses were never meant to be strong enough to beat back large invasions. In the case of AI, you can actually use defenses to beat up a disproportionately large fleet. Humans will of course be able to counter this (the AI doesn't target construction ships, which means you can rebuild 4 turrets in the middle of battle), but nonetheless

One thing that gets me is how drastically upgrading your fleet supply decreases your income. I think it should scale to the amount of ships you have, like if you max your fleet supply at X level, the correct deduction from your income should be made. So people with max fleet supply won't have -75% income at all times, only when they max it out.

It was done this way to get players to actually decide when they need to upgrade and to live with the consequences, otherwise it would just be too easy.

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And the way it's designed to be

Well some players are more or less turtle oriented. I think there should be the option for those who are more inclined to build larger defenses available. Also going by the Lore, TEC should be more defense oriented duh to fighting a two front war. Having a large defense to thwart enemy invasions makes sense, to me.

When you research fleet supply, you're basically providing the infrastructure to support the fleet. It's not the direct fleet upkeep costs, but how much it costs to set up and keep the necessary infrastructure functioning - can't really reverse that It was done this way to get players to actually decide when they need to upgrade and to live with the consequences, otherwise it would just be too easy.

Once again for me, it makes more sense to provide upkeep per ship, I know its bad to compare the game to real life but countries provide maintenance for their military, which is what a vast portion of their budget is. Providing infrastructure doesn't make sense, in my opinion.

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Well some players are more or less turtle oriented. I think there should be the option for those who are more inclined to build larger defenses available.

This is precisely why defenses are the way they are

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This is precisely why defenses are the way they are

If they were to take up fleet supply, like I suggested, it would balance things. Build a large fleet, or build a large defense, gives a better variety in strategy and choice.

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And the end result is the same, that it bogs down the game and makes it drag on a lot longer than it should

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And the end result is the same, that it bogs down the game and makes it drag on a lot longer than it should

But thats a good thing! It would cause people to struggle to take planets and make fights more ferocious. Making strategy and fleet composition all the more important. If the game is suppose to follow the Lore, especially for the TEC, they're fighting tooth and nail, with everything they have, so it would make sense for fights to draw on longer. Each planet yielded means more people subjugated to slave labor or brain washing.

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I would agree that there economical player would have several short comings in this game as of yet, and that more options for income and possible mineral extraction would be great to increase the diversity of the game. Perhaps the concept you suggested or a hybrid of, either way I think you're onto something.

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I have to agree with Naoza... I don't necessarily agree with his solution (its late, and I don't really the energy to think about it at the moment

).

...yes, it will make the game drag on longer, but what is the point of playing a 4X empire-building game, if you can't really build an empire?

I guess I'm biased, because I'm a turtler...but that's one of the things that drew me to this game in the first place

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IF THE DEFENSE ARE PUT IN TO FLEET SPOTS IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE CHALGH

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I have to agree with Naoza... I don't necessarily agree with his solution (its late, and I don't really the energy to think about it at the moment

In most games I've generally been turtle oriented as well, however Sins doesn't give you the option, its either build a fleet or die. I just think a greater variety of structures and more defense options would really add something to the game.

IF THE DEFENSE ARE PUT IN TO FLEET SPOTS IT TAKES AWAY FROM THE CHALGH

I said once the given tactical slots on any planet are filled, then fleet supply will begin to be used up. So you can still have defense without it taking anything away, however if you want a larger defense, you'll have to use some fleet supply.

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And then when you run out of space on your grav-well to put defenses because your grasp of strategy extends only to "PAINT SHIPS RED, MORE DAKKA" you'll start wanting Ironclad to make grav wells bigger.

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What I'm about to say might make some people here upset. But it's going to be the honest truth.

There should be, in no way, any way for players to TURTLE in a match.

This leads to slow boring gameplay.

The concept of people building an economy, bunkering themselves in and then building a lot of long range weapons turns me off from the game.

The point is, your FLEET is the best defense you have. Your defenses, are to stop people from using small forces from raiding and destroying sensititve structures. They're to slow pirate attacks... and they are to slow the enemy while a fleet arrives. Defenses do those tasks perfectly the way it is now. I wouldn't change anything except perhaps the range of the turrets.

The way it is now, or should be. A player can enter a system and be outside of the range of defenses. This allows them to either turn around, go around or hit them at a distance. This is something that pretty much exists in most RTS games, and in reality... it's essentially artillery striking a fortified position.

I do think that there should be some way to slow people from going around your planets and performing surgical strikes.

I also do think there should be some way to win economically.

Now that I'm done being a critic. I'll offer something constructive.

To help Economy players, why not allow players to offer missions of their own to other players. That way you can essentially hire a computer and human player to do your dirty work for you.

As for other economic structures, I think you should be able to construct something to raise the allegience of planets far away from your capital. Make it take up Tactical Slots. This way if you managed to eliminate a player and colonize as you went, after fortifying you may want to recover some of the lost income in the area lost from loyalty.

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I think assaulting a heavily fortified position would be most fun! Honestly I can see the Vasari or Advent totally fleet oriented, due to them coming from other galaxies, but the TEC have been in their system for thousands of years, it would only seem natural to see them develop defensive weapons against pirates, moreso than what they have now.

There needs to me more strategy involved than building a giant fleet and launching at another planet. Fortifying positions with more defensive structures than whats available would make gameplay more interesting.

However I think you missed where I said have defensive structures use fleet supply, so really they would screw themselves in the end if they settled down because their economy would be severely limited.

I'm just throwing this out there to give another side to gameplay, I think having everything offensive cuts down on he potential of the game. However I suppose some of what I've suggested can be implemeted in a mod so no harm done.

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