NO!

Is the lack of diversity at the higher levels of education a problem? Definitely. But it is not a problem that can be fixed from the top down. There is no benefit to be had from pushing minority students into programs they are not ready for, purely for the sake of diversity. Similarly, it is illogical, not to mention insulting, to suggest that standards be lowered so that more minorities qualify for certain programs of study.

It is true that underpriviliged students underperform on standardized tests (which are useless, btw, but that really isn't relevant here) as well as in their general schoolwork, and this is where the problem must be addressed and solved: At the point of origin. You do not stick a Volvo in a road race and wonder why it can't keep up. If underprivileged students constantly lag behind their peers in terms of schoolwork, we must find a way to close this achievement gap so that everyone can truly compete for the few coveted university spots. It must also be mentioned, however, that standardized test scores and grades remain fairly poor indicators of actual knowledge gained in school, but this does not mean that society sits on its hands and waits for the system to fix itself; rather, we must work as best we can to make the flawed system equitable.

As I've written before, affirmative action does nothing but stigmatize the minority students that are qualified for fast-paced university programs, and degrade the ones who don't make the cut.

The process never asks about race. It would be illegal anyway.

One quick side note: High school achievement gaps are divided more by socio-economic standing, not race. This type of discussion often gets muddled because people assume it is about race, a topic which tends to become heated and offensive. In reality, this is a financial issue.

I read those authors in HS.  I always hated Literature, but now am glad I was forced to take it.

But to answer your question, no.  Since the program is not mandatory, you cannot force people to participate in it.

Ok. I'm glad people seem to agree with me, because there are some on campus who are angry at the Honors Program. I just don't see how lowering the standards helps anyone, but they complain that the standards aren't fair. Countering with, "Who said life is fair?" just seems to piss them off. Not that that stops me from saying it...

I always tell them to find the word fair in the Constitution, then we will talk about fair. So far, no one has.

Why would it be a lowering of the standards to have diversity, and why would the standards have to be lowered?

If I'm reading SHE's post right, she's talking about a growing initiative at her school to force the honors program to consider students who don't meet academic standards because of their minority status.  When I went to school, I saw much the same thing with minority campus groups throwing fits if certain percentages in programs weren't achieved. 

Arguments of how statistically speaking, minority students aren't afforded as good a secondary education as whites, how they have lower test scores due to various socio-economic reasons etc. were all used to try and justify academic standards being lowered or ignored in CONSIDERATION of being a minority.

They are out there, there's no question of that, and I'm all for seeing schools bend over backwards to attract those students.  If you can make the grade, meet the academic criteria and keep up with the program, I don't care if you've got green skin and yellow dots all over your face.  But in the end I believe in it being a meritocracy, and that no standard should be lowered to accomodate anyone because they're a minority.

If you don't meet the standards for an honors program, you don't get in. 

Thanks Zoomba... you said it better than I could.

It isn't that we don't have minorities in the program. We do, just not many of them. I'm part of the outreach program, an Honors Ambassador, and we reach out to numbers, not people. In a way, it's pretty sad. Some kids with the high numbers don't make good Honors students while some with slightly-higher-than-average numbers make great Honors students. We don't actively recruit all that much because we are the fastest growing school in the state, and the Honors program is a big reason for that.

If we lacked minorities because they did not feel comfortable in the program, that would be a big problem that would need a solution fast. We simply lack diversity because of who applies and who qualifies. To fix this, some people have suggested that we lower the required ACT and GPA numbers. These numbers are not set in stone, and amazing writing samples and recommendation letters can help out a person with a low ACT... but usually only if they have a good GPA to recommend them.

Only if he reads it.



Amen, amen, amen! I understand that not everyone had the childhood I had. Not everyone had parents that read to them, made sure they did their homework, helped with school projects, and insured academic success. However, I don't think it would be fair for me to get left out of the Honors program because they want to give my spot to someone with a less than stellar academic record.

This has actually come up within another program -- the Fulbright Foundation. The Fulbright committee is more likely to give money to a student from an historically underrepresented school than one from Harvard or Yale. I don't believe that I should get a grant over someone with a better GPA simply because I come from a school with no past Fulbright Scholars... except that this grant was set up to give opportunities to students from smaller schools who, historically, have fewer opportunities.

And to those that say minorities did not have the same opportunities

Some really don't Doc. There are minorities out there who are just as smart who don't get the chances at most opportunities just because their family can't afford it. And this is why there are some programs set up for these children who do have the brain power and can meet the demand. Unfortunately these very smart chldren are often looked upon as having been given something and so we have people who cop this attitude that they always take when it comes to race that blacks (because most people seem to only always think black when it comes to minorites, and blacks are not even the major minority anymore) but most people will say, oh they got there because they are black, when sometimes that is not the case.

it's time we all stop that kind of thinking because this is what hinders the youths who are our future in this country.

Some really don't Doc.

I know.  But the answer is not to lower the standards.  But to raise the standards of those who are not getting the full measure.  As I said.

Unfortunately, the focus is not on increasing the opportunity, but lowering the standards.

I think diversity is a good thing and if you want to encourage it then you probably can't hold everyone to the same standard because we are all different.

Diversity is a good thing, but when it comes to something like this, everyone must be held to the same standard. Certainly we are all different, that is why diversity exists. The idea is that given the same circumstances, the potential for achievement is equal for everyone, regardless of race, finances, etc. This is why the focus must be on making all student's resources as equal as possible.

Taking the top 10% based on race, gender, or any other biological grouping will ultimately fail because it is just a well-meaning form of segregation. The problem is not that the top students get into the top programs. That is exactly as it should be.

Which is in fact nothing more than a form of racism. Are you saying that minorities are simply not capable of being smart enough or motivated enough to meet the standards as they are? If so, you're a bigot.

Those students, minority or otherwise, who are bright and motivated but economically disadvantaged should be given the financial aid needed to help them succeed. But those same students should be expected to meet the same standards as anyone else. If they are bright and motivated they are just as capable of doing so as anyone else. Minorities are not in any way incapable of doing so despite the Liberal mentality to the contrary.

I have personally met some highly intelligent people in my life who just happened to be of a "minority" race. I do not believe that minorities are in any way inferior to anyone else and are just as capable of success as anyone else.

There are plenty of white students out there who don't meet the current honors stanndards either but I don't advocate lowering the standards for them either.

Motivated people succeed when they are given goals to strive for and I do not for a second believe that a black student who is motivated is any less capable of doing so than a white one.

I firmly believe in economic help for financially disadvantaged students based upon economic need, but race is not and should not be a factor at all. I despise racism in any form.

If they weren't racist in the first place wouldn't there be more diversity? (Sorry for the double negatives).

No.  Everyone does not have the same likes, dislikes and goals.  Looking at the end result and seeing racism is specious as there are many Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers that care nothing for the liberal arts, so they are not represented.

Equality of opportunity does not guarantee equality of outcome.

... there are many Doctors, Lawyers and Engineers that care nothing for the liberal arts, so they are not represented.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean? Do you mean they are not represented on the Honours program?

Equality of opportunity does not guarantee equality of outcome.

What does this statement really mean? I seem to be missing some context, are you speaking generally or in relation to what Sugar posted? If there is no equality of outcome then how can there be equality of opportunity?

So the solution is to make the footing equal from the start, not re-start the race from somewhere in the middle.

Can't we do both?


This is such a complex issue but its a really interesting topic to ponder over.